Crow Busters Forum

Old Artilleryman · Guru

Why so few 16s?

Mitch · Member

Great looking guns! I have never seen a 16ga in my life. The reason that people shy away from odd gauges is because of their lack of popularity. If I run out of shells with my 16ga on a duck hunt then I am completely screwed. If I carry a 12 then I can simply ask for a few shells from my buddy. While 20ga isn't as common as 12, it is still more popular than 16. With 20ga you can take down squirrel and rabbits without ruining every square inch of meat. If 16 were more popular then I would probably get one, but the lack of shooters makes me shy away from it.

-- Edited by Mitch on Saturday 10th of January 2015 03:26:03 PM

M12Shooter · Guru

16's were probably never very popular in the U.S. On par with the 20 gauge I would guess until 20's were chambered in 3 inch. Void between 12 and 20 gauge 3 inch was so small that the 16 had no choice other than to slide into oblivion. Same fate faces the 28 gauge which is only still alive because of skeet.

I shoot a lot of 16 gauge fodder at crows and upland birds. I love the gauge and how 16 guns handle, but...ammo selection and quality is poor. Good quality loads will run double what premium 12 gauge trap loads will cost one. Used to reload 16 gauge back in the day but sadly Winchester years ago discontinued production of compression formed AA type hulls. My dream would be a STS type hull manufactured in 16 gauge but I don't feel thats likely.

Ted

Butch · Guru

OA,

I enjoy old gun stories and history. Thanks for sharing. Pics are great.

Butch

Big Honkers · Guru

OA,

Nice photos. I like the fix your elder added to the Stevens. Gives it character

BH

Gadget Bob · Guru

Hi boys,

Interesting topic and excellent info.

The 16 gauge took a back seat when it got left out of the mix in the skeet game. Manufacturers cut R&D for shell development and 16 gauge ammo choices were reduced while reloading components dried up. And the 3 inch 20 mentioned above took another chunk of the upland hunters market.

It was very popular in the Midwest to stomp around corn patches kicking up pheasants and quail along with cottontails with your Ithaca 37 or Browning Auto-5 chambered in 16 gauge. It was said the 16 carried like a 20 and hit like a 12!

In my own experience, I have fired all of 5 shells at crows with my Winchester 37 in 16 gauge and 4 augured in to the terra firma. That 80% combat efficiency is by far the best with any gauge for me. Maybe I should retire my Metro Maxus? Maybe not.

Regards,

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Long before the game of skeet came along the makers of American double barrels produced far fewer guns in 16ga. In many ways the manufacturers tell us what we want. The twelve bore was always dominant by a wide margin in production, 9 or 10 to 1. So fewer guns made, no separate class in Skeet, too little gun in the minds of trap shooters, a more limited selection of factory ammo and more expensive than other guages, no quality hulls for reloading like AA and STS, and limited wad selection for reloading (what can be found is usually for heavy loads 1 1/8 ounce).

It however carries a mystique among upland bird hunters, a favorite of some of the old time outdoor writers and of course Browning gave their A-5 in that guage it's own iconic name, the "Sweet 16".

In spite of it's lack of popularity they work well and have a small and steadfast cult of followers.

I have never heard of a Meffert, it looks very nice. How long are those barrels and are they fluid steel or damascus?

Arkie · Veteran Member

Try finding a left-hand 16.

Bob

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Arkie wrote:
Try finding a left-hand 16.

Bob

It doesn't take long to find a 16ga Ithaca model 37.

Skip · Guru

No one can question Gadget Bob's combat efficiency with any weapon much less the mighty Ithaca 37 but I doubt it is about to retire his trusty Maxus!!

The 16 ga disappearance is an interesting question and several good reasons have been given. The 16 ga. was very popular. When Winchester introduced the venerable Model 12 it was introduced in 16ga and produced for 2 years before the 12ga showed up. Many a pheasant, grouse and duck have fallen to a 1oz load of #6's delivered by a 16ga gun. Original 16ga guns, pre SAAMI were 2-1/2 chambers, not 2 3/4" Most ended up converted.

When I read this thread, two long held thoughts presented themselves: 16ga tends to pattern poorly AND there are no 16ga events in clay bird competition hence the gauge was doomed. Some research finds my first opinion had never been true ( I heard it somewhere years ago) and I now doubt the second one played much of a role since 28 ga. is about as common as 16 and 28 ga. completion is part of skeet events but is all but dead to the world except for skeet. Why did the 16 nearly disappear? It is a "tweener". The 20 ga can do everything a 16 can and the 12 can do anything either of them can plus some not to mention the cost of 16ga ammo! And if the 16 was not lost before, it surely got lost after non-toxic shot laws arrived.

My research revealed the 16 with a 1 oz load truly patterns about as well as any. One of my 16ga experts tells me such a load is perfectly balanced and shoots predictably good patterns. It was a 16ga M12 with 1oz. lead #5s produced the best patterns he had ever seen! Problems arose when it was made into something it wasn't with 1-1/8, 1-1/4 and 1-5/8oz. loads. Nuff said for me. The optimum lead payloads written in stone are: 10ga- 1-1/2oz; 12ga-1-1/8oz; 16ga-1oz; 20ga-7/8oz; 28ga-3/4 oz; and .410 1/2 oz. Of course other loads shoot well but on average these will perform best if pattern quality is the goal.

To this day the M12 is still popular today particularly in SxS with grouse hunters in the NE and Mid West and one particular M12 fan in Manitoba I know of... though most reload now as it is hard to find good/premium shells anymore.

Skip

M12Shooter · Guru

I shoot 2 16 gauge Model 12 Winchesters on crows and upland birds not because I must but rather because I like to smile One is in 95% condition as it was purchased from auction and owned by a gentleman that acquired it new in 1956 for his wife to shoot. Apparently it was used by her exactly twice biggrin . My second M12 16 pump is a field grade as well. Was choked full but I had the fixed full tweaked to light modified by a local smith. Absolutely crushes crows with one ounce field loads of 8 shot at 1165fps. Patterns like a dream. Have several other interesting 16 gauge shotguns but I will leave their story for another day... Attached for your viewing pleasure, a photo sampling of 16 gauges in action smile

Ted

Mark · Guru

Interesting: A model 12 in 16 ga just posted on Accurate Shooter classified.. Well used. $200...

Butch · Guru

M12,

Your 12's are great looking guns, I have been looking for a nice 16ga but all I'm finding are rough. I have a 20ga an 12ga that are in the 90% plus condition and want a nice 16 to go with them, don't think I'll ever find a 28ga or a mod 42 that will be in my price range but there's always hope. Anyway looking forward to the stories and pics on the other 16's you wrote about.

Butch

M12Shooter · Guru

Butch, most field grade model 12's are pretty well beat. Well used 12 and 16 gauge guns are basically 200 dollar guns at best. I call them "canoe paddles". These however still shoot well often needing nothing more than a simple tune up... If you want to meddle in early 20th Century technology!! Still one can uncover the odd treasure out there.

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Wednesday 14th of January 2015 04:58:22 AM

Old Artilleryman · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
Butch, most field grade model 12's are pretty well beat. Well used 12 and 16 gauge guns are basically 200 dollar guns at best. I call them "canoe paddles". These however still shoot well often needing nothing more than a simple tune up... If you want to meddle in early 20th Century technology!! Still one can uncover the odd treasure out there.

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Wednesday 14th of January 2015 04:58:22 AM

Ted: I like my canoe paddle! and you're right--it "takes a beating and keeps on ticking."

NH Crowshooter: I haven't forgotten you; will get some more photos of the Meffert 16 on this thread in a day or two.

Craig

Old Artilleryman · Guru

NH Crowshooter and all: This information was found on various Internet sites including Gun Boards and the German Gun Collectors Association. Immanuel Meffert Waffenfabrik, formed in 1839 in Suhl, Germany—renowned for its firearms manufacturing to this day. Meffert lasted until WWII and the Soviet occupation, producing upscale shotguns, rifles, and Drillings. The “Fluss Stahl” barrels indicate that Krupp steel from the City of Essen was used to forge them—these are not Damascus though many beautiful Damascus barrels were made by Meffert. There are little to no Meffert historical written records remaining, as the Russkis trashed the place following the war. Interesting to me, was that I served in the 2^nd Armored Cavalry Regiment during the early 70s in Bamberg, about 50 miles SSE of Suhl, helping the tankers and grunts guard a portion of the Inter-German Border. (To the youngsters out there: Germany used to be divided into E. and W. Germany).

Following my grandfather’s death, my father (not a shooter) passed this piece and a couple of other shotguns on to me. After hauling this beauty around, unused, with my other arms for 25 Army years and finally getting back into hunting here in SW MI (“for the first time”) 40 years later, I had it checked out by a proper gunsmith who smoothed out two dings on the left barrel, replaced the firing pin return springs, and test fired it declaring it safe. However, he said that the chambers were not modern 2 ¾", but shorter 2 1/2", recommending Fiocchi shells as they too are a bit shorter. The shells I bought (bargain price…) measure 2 ¼ “; 2 7/16” fired. The shell has 2 1/2 stamped on it, but the box says 2 ¾”, go figure. Perhaps some of you more knowledgeable members out there can offer some insight into this.

It is beautifully hand engraved with the exposed metal appearing to be nickel-plated and the engraving done over the plating. The engravings show typical German game: fox (Fuchs), partridge (Rebhuhn), rabbit (Hasen), ducks (Enten), small deer (Roewild). I have experimented with cleaning the metal with some success, cleaning some of the crud off with alcohol and “Q-tips.” But that’s a long-term project. There are many markings/stamps on the metal parts; all in accordance I’m certain, with the German Bureau of Important Stamps and Markingsof that era. "Hubertus" (the patron saint of hunters and metalworkers) was a registered trademark of Immanuel Meffert. If my Internet sources are correct, this gun was proofed in August, 1915 according to the “8 15” stamp beneath the barrels, on the receiver flat, and beneath the forearm. As such, it was likely made then or about that time. With no "70" (70mm = 2 3/4") next to the "circled 16," it means that it was proofed for the (then) standard 65mm = 2 1/2" case, hence the gunsmith’s recommendation to go with the shorter Fiocchi. Another source said that the older 65mm/2 ½” shells are still manufactured and available if one searches a bit. OAL is 40 ¼”, with a barrel length of 29 7/8.”

As it is such a beautiful piece and is light and easy to handle/point, it seems to me to be a good candidate for restoration and continued further use on special occasions. The barrels have some flecks of exterior rust and since the only bluing is on the barrels (no nickel-plating there), a re-bluing is feasible. The receiver and other exposed steel is either plated or engraved; this could be cleaned. The wonderfully fitted stock could also be refinished though it is not a spectacular piece of wood. Since I do not care about its collector value and have no one to hand it down to, why not? Again, your opinions are welcome.

Hmmm, a 100^th birthday coming up; I’ll certainly take it out again during the August-September crow season this year to celebrate its 100^th anniversary by using it to drop a crow or two. At least I’ll try—you know how that goes. smile

Mitch · Member

For the medal details I would use Jewelry polish and a Q-tip, used it on a Mosin-Nagant to get rid of cosmoline and dirt from its previous owner (probably a Russian soldier, dated 1943). The surface rust could be handled with quick-bluing (or something like it) and a steel wool pad (be very gentle of course). To refinish your stock you need a can of oven cleaner to remove the old stain and finish. I would recommend taking the current pieces of wood to a paint/staining store and ask them to set you up with a color and finish that fits the current stock.

I have 'refinished' several guns (mainly Mosins and old Shotguns that were abused) and it is very easy, and not as labor intensive as you might think. Here is the stock refinishing video if you are interested www.youtube.com/watch .

Mitch

Gadget Bob · Guru

Hi OA,

I like your 100th year birthday plan for your Meffert!

Regards,

Bob · Guru

How about the 24 gauge? They still make factory ammo for it!

My dad had a pair of 14 gauge hammer guns like the one on your photo OA.

The Europeans loved the 16 gauge.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Old Artilleryman wrote:

NH Crowshooter and all: This information was found on various Internet sites including Gun Boards and the German Gun Collectors Association. Immanuel Meffert Waffenfabrik, formed in 1839 in Suhl, Germany—renowned for its firearms manufacturing to this day. Meffert lasted until WWII and the Soviet occupation, producing upscale shotguns, rifles, and Drillings. The “Fluss Stahl” barrels indicate that Krupp steel from the City of Essen was used to forge them—these are not Damascus though many beautiful Damascus barrels were made by Meffert. There are little to no Meffert historical written records remaining, as the Russkis trashed the place following the war. Interesting to me, was that I served in the 2^nd Armored Cavalry Regiment during the early 70s in Bamberg, about 50 miles SSE of Suhl, helping the tankers and grunts guard a portion of the Inter-German Border. (To the youngsters out there: Germany used to be divided into E. and W. Germany).
Following my grandfather’s death, my father (not a shooter) passed this piece and a couple of other shotguns on to me. After hauling this beauty around, unused, with my other arms for 25 Army years and finally getting back into hunting here in SW MI (“for the first time”) 40 years later, I had it checked out by a proper gunsmith who smoothed out two dings on the left barrel, replaced the firing pin return springs, and test fired it declaring it safe. However, he said that the chambers were not modern 2 ¾", but shorter 2 1/2", recommending Fiocchi shells as they too are a bit shorter. The shells I bought (bargain price…) measure 2 ¼ “; 2 7/16” fired. The shell has 2 1/2 stamped on it, but the box says 2 ¾”, go figure. Perhaps some of you more knowledgeable members out there can offer some insight into this.
It is beautifully hand engraved with the exposed metal appearing to be nickel-plated and the engraving done over the plating. The engravings show typical German game: fox (Fuchs), partridge (Rebhuhn), rabbit (Hasen), ducks (Enten), small deer (Roewild). I have experimented with cleaning the metal with some success, cleaning some of the crud off with alcohol and “Q-tips.” But that’s a long-term project. There are many markings/stamps on the metal parts; all in accordance I’m certain, with the German Bureau of Important Stamps and Markingsof that era. "Hubertus" (the patron saint of hunters and metalworkers) was a registered trademark of Immanuel Meffert. If my Internet sources are correct, this gun was proofed in August, 1915 according to the “8 15” stamp beneath the barrels, on the receiver flat, and beneath the forearm. As such, it was likely made then or about that time. With no "70" (70mm = 2 3/4") next to the "circled 16," it means that it was proofed for the (then) standard 65mm = 2 1/2" case, hence the gunsmith’s recommendation to go with the shorter Fiocchi. Another source said that the older 65mm/2 ½” shells are still manufactured and available if one searches a bit. OAL is 40 ¼”, with a barrel length of 29 7/8.”
As it is such a beautiful piece and is light and easy to handle/point, it seems to me to be a good candidate for restoration and continued further use on special occasions. The barrels have some flecks of exterior rust and since the only bluing is on the barrels (no nickel-plating there), a re-bluing is feasible. The receiver and other exposed steel is either plated or engraved; this could be cleaned. The wonderfully fitted stock could also be refinished though it is not a spectacular piece of wood. Since I do not care about its collector value and have no one to hand it down to, why not? Again, your opinions are welcome.
Hmmm, a 100^th birthday coming up; I’ll certainly take it out again during the August-September crow season this year to celebrate its 100^th anniversary by using it to drop a crow or two. At least I’ll try—you know how that goes.

OA you have a beautiful old shotgun. I know some things about American classic doubles but not very much about european doubles. Given the engraving it looks like it would have some value, you should research that. That is a late hammer gun, 1915. I suspect a fluid steel barrel hammer gun to be rather uncommon. Krupp steel is legendary in artillery and shotgun barrels. Both Ithaca and A.H. Fox used Krupp steel barrels. What are the chokes? Are the barrels uncut?

Since it is an antique my advice is, leave it alone, enjoy the gun for and with the character of it's age. Patina is to be expected. Attempts to clean it up or refinishing the barrels could seriously detract from it's value so be careful. Keep this gun away from harsh chemicals and cold bluing solutions, you'll regret using them. I used a Frontier Pad on a Damascus barrel Remington 1894. The barrels had places where there was a black scale. Using the Frontier Pad and Hoppe's #9 it removed the rusty scale and preserved the damascus finish underneath. Steel wool would not have done that, it would polish and remove the barrel finish. The Frontier Pad was recommended to me by some folks on the Parker collector site and they were right about how well it works. That's a nice gun, I'd work on getting a setup to load short 16's and shoot and enjoy a little each year.

Here is the link for the Frontier Pad. http://www.frontiermetalcleaner.com/

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 14th of January 2015 11:12:18 PM

Mitch · Member

It may have BEEN worth something, but now I think it is probably just an antique. No offense to OA, the gun is truly special and something to be respected. Get it checked out and let us know your plan of action. Would love to hear more about this gun.

Old Artilleryman · Guru

NHC:

I don't know what you mean by the barrels being cut or uncut.

As for choke, I suspect (from reading) that like many doubles, the right barrel/forward trigger/first shot is something less than a full choke, and that the left/rear/second shot is full. But without measuring them (muzzle in relation to the bore) I don't know exactly. Visually, the left barrel is more constricted. Here's a concise resource explaining chokes that you have probably heard of, but it helped me:

http://www.briley.com/understandingshotgunchokesabriefexplanationbybriley.aspx

Regarding its age, that's my best guess so far. Again, without an absolute authoritative opinion on the August, 1915 date from someone like the German Gun Collector's Association I remain uncertain over that--or, it is indeed one of the earlier examples of Fluss Stahl. I'll do more research as time permits. It's entirely possible though, as the Krupp family has also been in the "steel tube" business for a real long time. They got into a bit of a fix following WWII due to their cozy relationship with the Third Reich and using slave labor; but they're still in the steel business as Thyssen/Krupp.

Restoration is an emotional issue. There was an article in the American Rifleman within the past year or two dealing with an owner's dilemma of whether or not to have an old piece professionally restored--something like a .300 Savage. He ended up spending relatively big bucks ($2,500-$3,000 or so?) getting the job done. Prices like that make thoughts of such a project academic for me. But, in that article he discussed the pros and cons of his action: collector value, sentimental value, character & patina v. the restored beauty, and other variables. He opted for the restoration, though I can not recall the exact final reason. I'll have to find that article again. I'll also check out the German Gun Collectors and see what they think of this old gal. Thanks also for the cleaning technique and supply advice. Like most of the guys on this site, this is probably only one of several projects. Plenty to do--also, MI crow season (early part) begins in 17 days and a wake-up!

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Old Artilleryman wrote:
NHC:
I don't know what you mean by the barrels being cut or uncut.
As for choke, I suspect (from reading) that like many doubles, the right barrel/forward trigger/first shot is something less than a full choke, and that the left/rear/second shot is full. But without measuring them (muzzle in relation to the bore) I don't know exactly. Visually, the left barrel is more constricted. Here's a concise resource explaining chokes that you have probably heard of, but it helped me:
http://www.briley.com/understandingshotgunchokesabriefexplanationbybriley.aspx
Regarding its age, that's my best guess so far. Again, without an absolute authoritative opinion on the August, 1915 date from someone like the German Gun Collector's Association I remain uncertain over that--or, it is indeed one of the earlier examples of Fluss Stahl. I'll do more research as time permits. It's entirely possible though, as the Krupp family has also been in the "steel tube" business for a real long time. They got into a bit of a fix following WWII due to their cozy relationship with the Third Reich and using slave labor; but they're still in the steel business as Thyssen/Krupp.
Restoration is an emotional issue. There was an article in the American Rifleman within the past year or two dealing with an owner's dilemma of whether or not to have an old piece professionally restored--something like a .300 Savage. He ended up spending relatively big bucks ($2,500-$3,000 or so?) getting the job done. Prices like that make thoughts of such a project academic for me. But, in that article he discussed the pros and cons of his action: collector value, sentimental value, character & patina v. the restored beauty, and other variables. He opted for the restoration, though I can not recall the exact final reason. I'll have to find that article again. I'll also check out the German Gun Collectors and see what they think of this old gal. Thanks also for the cleaning technique and supply advice. Like most of the guys on this site, this is probably only one of several projects. Plenty to do--also, MI crow season (early part) begins in 17 days and a wake-up!

Cut barrels are just that, shortened by use of a saw to eliminate or reduce the choke constriction. It is a major decrease to value. The 29 7/8" struck me odd but American double guns were not always a precise even number leaving the factory. Given it's foreign it may be an exact number of centimeters or something. A good Smith should be able to measure the bores and the constriction.

It's your gun, and restoration is your choice alone. I just wanted to make you aware that can have the opposite effect by making a gun worth less when you go to sell. Good luck with it whatever you decide and by all means shoot it.

Butch · Guru

OA,

I really like Double barrels and thanks for the fine write up on this Beauty of yours. Just my opinion, family history I like to keep them as they were given to me and only clean, but I do enjoy buying old guns and restoring them myself. If you find out more let us know and what you decide on.

Butch

Old Artilleryman · Guru

To NHC and Butch:

Nope, barrels are not cut. There is a visible constriction in the left barrel--probably a full. Can't tell for certain with my crummy vision. Will measure later using the chart I supplied.

As for mods to this piece, it's only speculation at the moment. Too many other projects. Will continue to study it and shoot it, however.

Thanks to all.

Craig

wingmaster · Senior Member

I do take my 16ga out every know and than I got a Rem Wingmaster 16ga and yes the 1oz no8 patterns very well

hvtrapper · Veteran Member

16 ga is alive and well here!
1 oz "square" load is dynamite on birds out of any of my 16's.
Oldest in the safe is a Lefever SXS that came with the shorter(2 9/16" I believe) chambers of it's origins. Still answers the call when I take it out for some exercise.
Most used is my M12 complete with factory polychoke. I wouldn't even own the gun w/o the polychoke, shop owner told me it would've gone home with him if not for the "corn cob" on the end of the barrel.
Most recent acquisition is a Browning Citori my wife gave me for our anniversary a couple of years ago.
I do roll my own ammo for the most part but have no trouble finding ammunition if willing to settle for 4's, 6's, or 8 shot in lead and no. 2 steel loads.
Components are hard to come by through local gun shops, but more easily through online search. Ballistic Products is one such company and even has a book just for the 16 shooter/loader.
World of difference between a 16 built on a gauge specific frame vs one built on a one-size-fits-all. Pretty common in the 50's-60's for manufacturers to use only two frame sizes for their mass market guns in 12 and 20ga. think of how clunky a 28 or .410 would be when built on a 20ga frame and then think about a 16 built on a 12. (A theory expounded by someone I once read, but happen to agree with)