Crow Busters Forum

shaddart · Guru

20 ga help

Bustem · Newbie

try shooting 1250 to 1275 fps 7.5 shells with a tight choke.. reloading is a great option , saves from buying thise big dollar shells.

shaddart · Guru

tried with 2 different sxs's 1 choked imp-mod & the mod-full. maybe i'm shooting 2 far, but birds are high heading for the top of the dump hill. It's like thry're on a mission, & not much interested in dekes or calls. shot some last year with a box of hi base 20 ga 4's & they dropped them clean, but $14 a box is a little rich for me, especially when we can go thru 2or 3 boxes on a good day.( don't hit 50-75 but can easily shootthat many shells)

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Switch to number 6 shot biggrin

. If you buy the inexpensive game loads from Winchester and Remington get the 7/8 ounce loading rather than 1 ounce. They are both 2 1/2 dram which means the 7/8 has a faster M/V and will work better. I speak from experience but don't use a 20 that much anymore.

7/8 #6 shot out of a 20ga at 1100 fps or better is death on crows. With lead shot faster is not alway better as the pellets are easily deformed and patterns blown if you try to shoot them too fast. The old high brass Winchester Super-X Double X number 6 was a hot load in a 20ga for ducks back in the day. That was a 1 ounce load at 1220 fps. Again the 2 1/2 dram 7/8 will punch a crow out very efficiently at the ranges you are talking about.

Reloading is the way to go. It saves money, let's you tailor loads and is a nice way to pass the time while you daydream of crow hunts to come.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 06:35:14 PM

shaddart · Guru

thx, i actually just bought 2 boxes of remingtons with exactly that load, i also remember those hi brass 6's from the day. buying them now is pretty pricey. Ever try anyof the winchester steel on crows ? they drop ducks pretty good & are pretty reasonable if you buy the 100 round box. Should probably just give up the 20 & take the 12, lot more economical, but I sure do love my 20 ga sxs's

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I just went down in my basement and looked at box of the Remmy Game Loads, instead of using the 2 1/2 dram marking the state 1225 fps.

It has been a long time but I have shot crows with 3" number 4 steel out of a 20ga. IMO steel shot kills crows a lot better than it kills ducks. It flattened them.

Let us know how the those #6 loads work. I am betting you will be pleased.

If check out my other posts you will find I am huge fan of using side by sides for everything. It sounds like you really enjoy that gun and if so there is nothing deadlier than a man shooting a gun he has confidence in. If I were you I'd be looking for a used MEC 600Jr in the off season and building up a supply of reloading components. In my experience the Remington STS is the best hull for reloading with the Winchester AA in a close 2nd place.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 06:53:32 PM

shaddart · Guru

actually have 3 mecs 12, 20,& 28. Have everything I need to load, even just picked up a bag of 4's at an auction. love my sxs's, my favorite is a 20 skb200. Also have 2 lefever nir
tro specials1 in 16 that someone cut the barrels on (cyl &cyl) great grouse gun & a 20 made in 1923 mod & full. have a savage 311 in 16 that I bought when I was a kid.. Don't want to date myself but I bought that 311 in a gunshop for $25. Also have a 12ga chas daly field hunter (fairly new) that I just can't warm up to, bought it to shoot steel for ducks. Now that I'm doing the crows would love to get an old l c smith, but they're getting pretty pricey & I'm retired. Great to talk to someone who also appreciates sxs's. jerry

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Jerry, L.C. Smith was a fine gun and they have their following. However they have a very serious achilles heel in their design and that is their stock. The LC is a true sidelock and that design made for a stock prone to splitting. The contact points between the receiver and stock are very small and over time recoil splits the wood. I know of two gunsmiths who specialize in wood; restocking, repairs, bending, rechecking and both independent of each other told me to stay away from any LC. The Lefever graded guns on the other hand is a sideplate rather then a sidelock and I am told those are not prone to this problem.

There was a boxlock made by Hunter Arms (which was LC Smith) called the Fulton. It was a knockabout and on par with Lefever Nitro Special (and the Nitro Special was actually made by Ithaca for Lefever). They are nice guns and can be found for much less money than an LC.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 07:42:08 PM

shaddart · Guru

Believe it or not, I actually have a 12 ga fulton & knickerbocker someone gave me. I've had them for years, I have all the parts but neither one of them has a stock, & like you said custom stocks are expensive. Neither of them is in good enough shape to put that kind of cash in. I would guess they're both from early 1900's, not damascus but old

nhcrowshooter · Guru

The Fulton was a more modern double gun. It was from the 20's and 30's. The Knickerbocker was a pretty low end gun sold by Crescent Arms if I remember correctly. Restocking them would be cost prohibitive but what you have is a valuable source of parts for anyone needing/looking.

Locally the Kittery Trading Post has a very high condition 12ga Fulton with 30" barrels F&M for $1395. I picked it up and it fit me very nicely and pointed naturally.

Bob · Guru

If you are shooting the 7/8th ounce load out of the 20 gauge I've always liked 8's over 7 1/2's because you have more shot to hit them with. If you're shots are 25 to 35 yards the 8's will work just fine. With a 7/8th ounce load you have 358 8's and 302 7 1/2's in each shell.

Two weeks ago I shot 133 crows in the morning just using 8's out of a 20 gauge.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Hey Jerry, you know what they say about opinions. Try the 8's and try the 6's. At the end of using each count the dead crows and empty hulls. You'll see quickly which one works better. This is something each person has to figure out on their own. Judging distance to a target is difficult, most err on the side of taking a longer then they think it is shot. 8's just don't seem to have the oomph to break wings and get into the vitals at the longer ranges. My hunting partner is a taxidermist. A wood duck and a crow have the same size body. #6 lead was the perfect wood duck load in the day and works the same on crows.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 08:06:17 PM

shaddart · Guru

Mine are pretty well used, I don't think they're worth anything, unless like you said for parts. Love my lefever 20, theres a lot of nitros out there but 20's seem kind of scarce. All those doubles & the last 2 weeks I've been hunting on some railroad tracks & walking in a couple of miles. I've been carrying an old 12 ga mod h&r topper. Been flattening them with #6's go figure huh!

nhcrowshooter · Guru

shaddart wrote:

Been flattening them with #6's go figure huh!

That's cause you and I just don't quite know what we are doing yet. Another 35 year of practice and I will get it down for sure smile

If 8's work for someone I say stick with them. I prefer the harder hitting #6 at long range. It provides fewer gliders and hoppers. Then again I like full chokes so what do I know.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 08:11:26 PM

Bob · Guru

Years back when you could still shoot lead at waterfowl I shot many a teal and wood duck with the 7/8 th ounce load of 8's out of a 20 gauge. 30 yards and under you would just stone em in mid air!

Most of the first 100,000 crows that I shot between 1974 and 2000 were shot with a 20 gauge full choke using 8's mainly, but also 9's as well.

Take a look at The Art of Crow Hunting dvd, most of the crows shot in the 551 bird shoot were shot with 8's & 9's out of a 20 gauge! I rest my case!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I used to eat my ducks, I can't imagine how many pellets would be in the breast of a wood duck if shot with a skeet load.

Bob no disrespect but shooting lots of crows requires no special skills beyond the basics of camoflage, decoys and calling. A 551 bird shoot requires one to be in a place where there are enough crows to shoot 551. That is not available to most of us. You would have the opportunity with such large numbers to consistently take the cherry shots at close range. Most of us don't have that luxury. Shot for shot all season long I have seen far more visibly hit birds flying with a leg or two hanging, gliding off hundreds of yards or get up and walk around the decoys when hit with 8's and 7.5's. This is not the result of poor shooting but insufficient pellet energy at the range. I can center my targets better than most and you know that.

Small shot will kill any crow dead inside 25 to 30 yards. It is much more ineffective vs. number 6 as the range increases and often times when available birds are small in number 40 yard and longer shots are taken. When shooting long range larger shot (and a bigger bore) are assets.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 08:41:27 PM

shaddart · Guru

Thx for all the info, I guess I just got to experiment with different loads. I've only been doing the crows for 2 years & its more fun than it should be. For me, I think half the fun is playing around with different things. really enjoying shooting my older guns again, did ducks & geese pretty exclusive for 5 or 6 years & would'nt shoot steel thru my sxs's, except the daly which is proofed for it. Shot a goose last year with a sxs 12 ga muzzleloader (not mine) loaded with steel, that was pretty cool

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Jerry check your PM's

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

You've never seen The Art of Crow Hunting have you? If you had you would have seen that I take em as they come, not just shooting the pud shots. It just wouldn't be fun for me to just shoot the easy ones.

I couldn't disagree with you more when you say shooting lots of crows requires no special skills. Perhaps if you had some of those special skills you wouldn't need that 10 gauge to hunt crows with. I think that you think that I just setup anywhere and just slaughter em all the time, nothing could be further from the truth. It takes years to hone you're skills as far as being a good crow hunter. I'm not talking about just shooting here, I'm talking about the right spot for the blind so you get the best opportunity as the crows come in. Scouting out an area and knowing what to do and when to do it is not learned over nite.

Frankly I don't have the problems you mention about birds limping off with small shot. On an average shoot (150 to 175 crows) I might have perhaps half a dozen limp off and crash & burn down range. That is a very small percentage in my book.

Since I am lucky enough to live in a target rich area I get to shoot more than most do on live birds. Out of a 12 gauge with 7 1/2's or 8's you will kill crows stone dead well beyond 40 yards if you're geared for that type of shooting.

A big part of crow hunting for me at least is to position myself where I can score on many multiple kills when the crows come in. Thats how you rack up big numbers. That is indeed a special skill, if it weren't anybody could go out and shoot 4 to 5 thousand crows or more each season.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob I went 35 years without using a 10ga. You should also know a 2 7/8" 10ga built in 1893 is not the same gun as a modern 3.5" 10ga. I have learned a great deal more about shotguns from it's use. I learned more about the short ten by reading books such Shotguns by Elmer Keith. Frankly I think you look a bit foolish if you are suggesting that somehow my hunting skills and or shooting skills are somehow poor or inferior because I shoot an antique double gun. Fact is I limit myself to two shots voluntarily and I still do very well for the parts I live in.

I stand by my observation that decoying and shooting crows requires no special skills beyond those required of any successful waterfowler. Scouting is part of the game and blind selection for wind direction and sun and designed to funnel birds in at low altitude is not rocket science. Go back and look through many of the posts in here and you will see many a mention of a high number of crips by others, I have read them.

Shooting a high volume of crows certainly requires some moderate skill, but once that is obtained is really about time and money to do it when it comes to racking up big numbers.

As I read your reply I was reminded of the sage advice of a college professor I had many years ago. He told me that in a debate or difference of opinion you will know you have won your case when a person with an opposing view resorts to insults.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 5th of November 2010 12:09:22 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Ouch that's a smack in the face to small shot shooters

Use what you want 8-7.5 is my choice out of a target load not a field load per the reloading book.
I've seen guys use turkey loads cause " that's what knocked em down " no need.

Here's a idea let's all load nickel plated shot in Heavy field loads! There is no reason I am currently loading reclaimed 7.5-8 shot I will tell you it will still drop em. Even after it has been shot before.

Back to the op questions you may have to choke up tighter to get comparable density of a pattern as a 12 ga your pattern may be smaller in dia.

H5N1 · Newbie

Bob,

I am a competitive trap shooter and an avid merchandise shooter. I have had the privilege over the years to compete with some of the best shooters in the nation. After watching your DVD “The Art of Crow Hunting” numerous times I would have to say that you have a special talent when it come to shooting a shot gun.

Todd

Bob · Guru

NH,

Flyway shooting is a whole differen't ball game than setting up for ducks or geese. Hunting crows in a feeding area is far easier as it's similar to waterfowl hunting, but flyway shooting is not. Many times on good flyway shoots you have to sit back and wait for the crows to make there move before you set up. I'm talking about afternoon flyway shoots, morning flyway shoots are easier to line up.

You forgot " endurance " and it takes a bunch on high volume shoots. Since you have never shot many crows in you're life even if you have been at it for 35 plus years you're only source of reference is shooting perhaps 500 to 600 clay targets in two to three days at a trap shoot. That is far differen't because you get to rest every 5 shots and it's drawn out over days not hours!

The reason you see posts about crippled crows and using shot sizes anywhere from 8's to 6's is for a variety of factors. Shot size, choke, shooters ability, all are factors as to how many birds get crippled.

Now please don't get you're feathers ruffled when I said you have not shot many crows, I'm not trying to insult you, it's just a fact. Shooting anywhere from 3 to 27 crows a day for a fella who has been at it for 35 years is pretty poor in my opinion. I don't care where you live in the country.

When you mention "high volume" shoots requiring only moderate skill you are delving into an area you know nothing about, because you have never been on a high volume shoot in you're whole life, so how can you make such a statement!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob wrote:

NH,

Now please don't get you're feathers ruffled when I said you have not shot many crows, I'm not trying to insult you, it's just a fact. Shooting anywhere from 3 to 27 crows a day for a fella who has been at it for 35 years is pretty poor in my opinion. I don't care where you live in the country.

Bob A.

Bob, have you ever hunted southern NH? There are times of the year it is easier to see a deer than a crow. Same place during the migration and you will see hundreds if not a thousand, but only for a short time. This is not the midwest or even PA or upstate NY. There are also next to no farms here, agriculture is non existent, open land and places to hunt preciously few. Time is another commodity, most of my hunts are 3 hours in duration. As far as endurance I have shot a shotgun in high volume clay pigeon shoots such ATA state chamionships and ATA singles and doubles marathons. I have been fortunate enough to go out to the line at 9PM on a Sunday night after three days of shooting and win a shootoff for the all-around trophy while fatigued and under the lights. The state shoots represent 900 to 1000 shoots over three days. They are different. They are usually held in the mid summer, with heat and humidity both over 90. Unlike crow shooting, if you are a competitor you know before calling for every bird, you can't miss one or you lose. That adds a level of mental fatigue that is not present in crow shooting. As far as a trapshooting marathon goes, not much rest when you are the line and shooting 500 to 1000 doubles targets in a single day. Have you ever tried it? I brought up the trapshooting because in an earlier thread you told me I would not likely be able to load and fire a hinge action shotgun effectively as many times a day as you do on a high volume crow shoot. You may recall you told me opening and closing my gun for so many shots would wear me out.

What I meant by saying only a moderate amount of skill was required , is one can seemingly be more successful in getting a larger number of crows if crows are plentiful. If there are hundreds of opportunities a day to shoot a crow you or I or anyone else on this board are going to shoot more shells and shoot more crows. Fact is one can not shoot what is not there. Your statement is similiar to pointing out I have not shot many Shovelers in NH and that makes me a pretty poor duck hunter. I have seen one Shoveler even though they are a legal bird in the days take. Go somewhere else in the country and they are plentiful. Lack of Spoonies in my bag indicates there as not as many here. Same with crows. Similiarly if you came here for a season I promise you that you will not have the 300 to 500 bird days you have had this year. You would have no choice but to accept a 30 bird day per man as a really good day.

I am not and have not claimed to be a better shot than you or a better crow hunter. What I am pointing out is we hunt in two widely divergent areas. If you put me in an area rich in crows and I choose to spend my time and money to pursue them 100% I will rack up a large body count, so will another accomplished crow hunter.

On a another note it seems you don't realize or can't help yourself when it comes to insults, even when you say you are not trying, it's still an insult. It really doesn't bother me much but I can tell you from a marketing perspective it may not help promote sales of your stuff. I know your comment above was directed at me but you cast a very broad net by defining a poor crow hunter in the manner you did. Where you live and hunt matters and it matters a lot. You might want to stop and think how your statement above might make others feel (both members and visitors to this site) who work hard and smart for the crows they get and don't shoot big numbers for no other fault other than they don't have as many crows to hunt because of where they live and hunt.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 5th of November 2010 12:01:50 PM

Bob · Guru

NH,

In one of you're earlier posts you said that I thought you're hunting skills were poor because you shoot an antique 10 gauge double. What? I never said that! What I said was in response to you're statement that "shooting lots of crows requires no special skill" I said to you that perhaps you aught to aquire some of those special skills "then you wouldn't have to hunt crows with that 10 gauge" In just about all you're posts you talk about how wonderful the 10 bore is on high and far birds, I'm sure it is. I think you don't quite get where I'm coming from, crow hunting is an art and that art is the culmination of several factors: A. Having the birds work in close so you can score on many multiple kills. B. Knowing when and where to setup on short notice. C. Knowing how best to position the decoys so the birds come in to you're advantage not there's! D. choke & shot size. E. Knowing how to use a hand call effectively. F. Knowing how to shoot effectively with a shotgun, that is an art in itself! G. Knowing how best to use the wind to you're advantage. H. Learning the habits of the birds, unlike waterfowl a crows habits can change from day to day!

I'm sure you took it as an insult on some of the things I said but it was not indended as an insult. If I was as thin skinned as you I would have taken it as an insult when you said that shooting lots of crows requires no special skill.

You're point about there being very few crows in you're area is well taken, so why not do something about it? Go to an area that has more crows to hunt?

I have a friend who lives in Stratford, NH north of you and he does pretty well on crows. At this time of year he has already had shoots in the 150 to 175 range. That is a very good shoot for that part of the world. His louzy days are anywhere from 40 to 50 crows in a day.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

Hey Todd,

Glad you enjoyed "The Art of Crow Hunting" "Crow Shooting" is another very good dvd.

A friend of mine who passed away in September used to shoot trap with one of the top hot rocks in the nation. Just a few years back this guy broke a 100 year record on clay targets in the state of Maryland. I met him at a Christmas party several years ago when I was back there hunting crows in Maryland and New York State. He saw the video version before it went to dvd format. He enjoyed it very much and also watched it several times like you.

Talk to you soon.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

NH,

I will agree with you that there is more pressure on you in a big skeet or trap shoot. You can't afford to miss a bird and that is added pressure. While you don't have that pressure on you on a big crow shoot you still have to have plenty of endurance and focus throughout the shoot. Where the two are very differen't are the fact that you just show up for a trap or skeet shoot. You still have to have a lot of focus inorder to win I will grant you that. While it does not matter if you miss some birds in a high volume crow shoot it is still much differen't than shooting high or low volume clay birds. You have a chance to study the clays before you actually shoot them! Granted, you still got to hit em!

A high volume crow shoot is not structured like a skeet or trap shoot. You are under pressure to keep the damn gun loaded and not burn the heck out of you're fingers on the barrel while doing so. As I mentioned earlier, "you just show up for a trap or skeet shoot" you don't have to have a thimble full of hunting experience for these events, infact most of these guys don't hunt at all, they just shoot clay targets. Now some of them are very fine shots but they don't know very much about actual hunting when it comes to live birds.

While you may shoot anywhere from 500 to 1,000 targets over a 3 day period it is comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about endurance and focus. On the very rare days when a fella shoots 500 or more crows he may get as much shooting in less than 1/3 the time you do on a big trap shoot! While I've never shot 1,000 shells at crows in one day I have had days where I've gone through anywhere from 500 to 726 hulls within a matter of hours on a very good shoot! So, it is my opinion that a very good crow shoot is far more taxing on you than any big trap shoot. I'm strictly talking physically, not mentally!

Bob A.

jd1983 · Senior Member

It's like hunting coyotes in the east and west they are different animals landscape is different even animal behavior is different. I am sure there are places in each state that you could ring up big numbers.
But to argue what size shot and choke to use is like arguing what shade of blue the sky is.

Some people prolly think that when I use skeet and #8s Iam nuts hey I am here to tell you it works well for the way I hunt.
That's right it works for me great take the info use it if you would like if not who cares. Some one else uses #4 turkey loads 3 in in a xxfull choke and swears by em good for them use them if you choose.
I don't feel the forum needs to argue on what's the best but rather what the options are. There is no need to insult anyone. The original poster is prolly new and now has a bad feeling bout this forum.
Sorry
Ranting done.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

We can debate whether a high volume crow shoot or a trapshooting marathon (up to 1000 clays in a day) is more physically taxing. Both are going to require some stamina. Physically if you can do one I believe you can do the other and if you can do one with a hinge action gun you can do the other, you will however shoot fewer crows with the hinge action gun due to it’s slower rate of fire. A sacrafice I am willing to make because I like shooting old sideby's.

I could have stated my point more clearly that a high daily number of crows shot, high annual number etc required one key ingredient beyond mastering the items you laid out for success, or what I referred to as having some moderate skills, you have to be where there enough crows to shoot a lot of crows.

StratfordNH is about the same driving time from my location as AlbanyNY or Hartford CT, it’s about 3 ½ hours each way. The terrain and weather difference is huge, Stratford is on other side of the White Mountains. It is a much more rural part of NH and there is more farming there. I am not surprised to learn there is some better shooting there. It would not practical for me to travel there very often.

I could have misunderstood the intent of your comment about my needing a 10ga.

I don't think I misunderstood “Shooting anywhere from 3 to 27 crows a day for a fella who has been at it for 35 years is pretty poor in my opinion. I don't care where you live in the country.” I will concede my use of the term day means I got out hunting for a couple of hours but it does not mean I hunted the entire day. I can tell you that you could have hunted anywhere you chose within ½ hr drive of my location in most of September and you would have been hard pressed to kill 3 birds if you hunted for the entire day. The lower numbers shot around where I live is not indicative of being a poor hunter.

I know a #8 pellet can not do what a 7 ½ pellet does at longer range. Likewise a #7 ½ cannot do what a #6 can do at longer range. The trick in long range shooting is to use the largest pellet possible and still insure there will be a tight enough pattern to provide enough multiple hits to kill the bird. Choke is an important factor. I guarantee there are people shooting crows with small shot at long range and they are hitting birds they don’t know they hit. A steady diet of magnum vs. chilled number #6 in either 1 1/8 or 1 ¼ ounce fired from a gun capable of putting 75% or more of those pellets in a 30” circle at 40 yards is going to kill more crows shot for shot for every crow that is shot at 45 to 60 yards than a load of 8’s or 7.5’s. It is easier and more economical to purchase shells in 7.5 and 8, whether promotional loads in convenient 4 packs or quality AA’s or STS loads. Finding the equivalent shell in #6 is difficult and more expensive. To shoot a large number of #6 that is high in performance and low in cost almost requires reloading them. Even for reloaders finding a bag of hard/magnum #6 is not always easy and they usually charge more for it.

I believe that from 0 to 60 yards #6 is the way to go. For the average shot at 40 yards and under smaller shot will work just fine. Shooting a large volume of quality loads of number 6 shot is not as economical nor as readily available as the smaller shot but performance wise overall I find it is superior and a better performer at extended range than the smaller sizes.

Now that this issue is settled can we move on to something less controversial like why Ford trucks are better than Chevy's, why does Remington make a better gun than Winchester and why redheads are hotter than blondes smile

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 5th of November 2010 08:39:01 PM

Bob · Guru

Hello Justin,

I don't think you're nuts at all using a skeet choke and number 8 shot. If thats what you use you are getting them into very good killing range so as to score on many multiple kills and that is what everyone should strive for. I don't know if you run & gun them or if you are in a blind shooting from one spot, either way you will do well.

I don't care one way or the other if NH wants to use a 10 gauge on crows. I think it's nice that he enjoys shooting his fine old side by sides on crows. I think the main reason is just that he likes shooting the 10 bore, plus most of his shooting is at the extreeme. But this is not real crow hunting! Perhaps I'm a purist in the way I think about crow hunting. The object is to locate them and then figure out the best way inwhich to get at em! By that I mean get the most of them, getting them into good range where you can really do a number on them. Anything less and you are just a hacker who can take or leave the sport in my opinion.

Anyone who knows me can tell you I won't BS you, I will tell you straight. Some people can handle it others can't, it depends greatly on how secure they feel about themselves.

Sincerely,

Bob A.

shaddart · Guru

Bob; your amazing, basically telling a guy he sucks for not killing more birds after 35 years of hunting. from what I can gather you & I are real close to the same age. At this point in my life the pleasure in hunting is being with my boys & my friends not about body count. If I pull the trigger once or 100 times thats great, but you know what ? If I don't pull it thats great to

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Most of my shots are in the 20 to 35 yard range. I do love knocking down a tall one from time to time. The 10 bore is pure joy when you have that lone crow, wings locked, just hanging there. He won't commit, he might have seen something, he might be educated but he is just hanging there and won't go away. There are no other birds in sight. I put the bead a few feet ahead of his pecker and let the old 10 rip. More times than not the crow gets tagged when he thought he was out of range. It is a very satisfying thud when they hit coming down from high up biggrin

Bob · Guru

Hello Jerry,

The choice is clearly his, he knows where there are more birds to get at in his state and some of the bordering states inwhich he lives. Perhaps he does not have the push that I do or perhaps he does not have the money to travel and stay for days at a motel. I feel bad for the guy if he can not afford to do it. But putzing around in the same old area season after season he is just spinning his wheeles with the results he gets. A fella can always put a little back during the off season so he can take a trip to a better area during the hunting season.

It takes a lot of time doping out an area and then getting permission all over the place. It takes a lot of push and most people just will not go to that much trouble. I put a lot of work into the sport, more than most, but I love doing it and meeting new people.

I just got back from a very nice 1,300 mile goose chase checking out a new area. It was 607 miles one way! But that is part of the game!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Wow, I never thought about coming here for financial advice.

Thanks for the tip. I guess I'll try putting a little back during the off season so I can stop spinning my wheels. I should be able to do it between tuition payments for my daughter, it's a paltry $46,250 a year this year for tuition, room and board.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 5th of November 2010 10:11:23 PM

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

I figured by the guns you shoot you could well afford staying at a flea bag motel like I do during the season; but you never know.

So whats the problem, how come you don't venture out into better territory? Can't get away because of the job, what about vacation time?

Bob A.

jd1983 · Senior Member

First off red heads are rare ;)
Bob
I just started to do feeding set ups with them getting better and better each time when the snow starts to build in pa I will run and gun more but right now I am getting better results. Right now I am enjoying gettin 12+birds in just a few hours I think once I get better at calling judging birds and distance the numbers will rise greatly cause the number of birds that come by are in good numbers just I have been conservative at times on screwing up and educating large groups if I can help it.

Bob · Guru

Justin,

Why do you run & gun once there is snow on the ground? If you have 6 to 8 inches or more of snow cover it will concentrate the birds, where you find them you'll find a lot of them! Drive around the county and find out where they like to feed once the ground is covered with snow. Cattle operations, hog lots and chicken farms are a good place to start.

Not choking! Anyone who does any sport wheather it's wing shooting, billiards or baseball has to learn over time to "get a grip" and yes, it's a lot easier said than done!

Just stay with it and things will fall into place over time.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

NH,

There is not much difference in the dia. of a 7 1/2 or an 8 in regard to shot size. I can kill em just as high and just as far with 8's as I can with 7 1/2's. I like the 7 1/2's a little better on a real breezy day but other than that the 8's work real well for me.

Later in the season when the birds become more spooky I use the same trap load as I did earlier in the season. A lot of the shooting later in the season (if you're hunting birds that have been hunted hard) is 40 yards and beyond. I don't seem to have the problems that you experience in regard to the smaller shot sizes.

I'm not out to break or smash bones with the shot I use, I don't have too, I'm killing em by the shock effect of being hit so many times simultaneously. My experience with the smaller shot sizes is that even though they loose velocity more so than you're 6's down range they still work better for me because of the shear number of pellets hitting the mark. A crow is a fragile bird, it does not take lead very well, this is why you don't need very much penetration to end his days of marauding.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Although seemingly a minute difference in diameter a number 7.5 lead pellet hits a target with 40% more energy than a number 8 at 40 yards when fired at the same muzzle velocity. A number 6 pellet has 82% more energy at 40 yards than a 7.5. Two number six pellets will impart the same amount of kinetic energy as five number 8 pellets but the #6 will break bone, create more tissue damage and get into the vital areas whereas a number 8 pellet will not.

"When it comes to lethality, there is no substitute for penetration." Randy Wakeman (on shotguns)

Hydraulic shock is much more lethal to living things than traumatic shock and you have to get into the vitals to create hydraulic shock.

If you can hit your birds consistently in the head and neck the smaller shot will be effective at the longer range as that area is where traumatic shock is most effective. Most shooters are going to have more luck just hitting the bird period. That is where 6's are more effective.

I have seen better results overall with the use of number 6 on crow, both through my own experience and by observing the shooting of many friends I have gone hunting with over the years. You are giving nothing up at close range with number 6 shot (except a slightly smaller pattern from a tight choke needed for longer shots) but you keep the penetration needed for hydraulic shock the smaller pellets have lost as the range extends.

There is also quite a difference between and incoming, quartering, or parallel to the shooter bird vs. a going away shot. Once the birds start to scatter because you fired or your partner fired there are always opportunities to take a quickly exiting bird. Killing a going away bird at 35-45 yards is harder than an incomer because the incoming bird is exposing it's vital area. This is the crow hunting shot where number 6 shines.

The only thing I give up by using number 6 is a little bit of money per shot, but I gain a more effective load overall. Eights might be good enough most of the time, sixes are better all of the time.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 6th of November 2010 05:33:18 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

what he said, i have been shooting crows 36 years, i'have try all shot size and 6 is the shot size(for me) to shoot for all around crow hunting,i started out with trap loads 71/2's in a 12 ga (that was all i had at the time,money) i though it was that some of the crows you hit would fly away and was the norm( young and new to this) . than i shot some 1 1/8 th oz of 6's MY GOD WHAT HITS at 10 yds to 50 yds! crow should not fly after getting hit ! biggrin

, that is when i found out that 6's do better than any shot size! i shoot all year round so this shot gun sport is not new to me. started shooting trap in 1969 (9 years old). best way to find out is try it your self. oh on the low crow kills on hunts ,you can not kill what is not there. i am shur NH found the best spots to hunt in his part of the state in the last 35 years of hunting, 1 kill a day to 500 + a day, who cares have fun!! smile

Bob · Guru

NH,

That was a good post showing the kinetic energy with the differen't size pellets. The only edge you have with 6's is on a crow flying straght away from you where you mentioned there are no vitals to hit unless you have deep penetration, but thats as far as it goes. On all the other shots that present themselves you don't need deep penetration to kill em stone dead. Now dead is dead wheather your using 6's or 8's.

Hey, you never answered my question as to why you don't hunt outside you're area and just stay in a motel? If you know where there are more crows to be had why don't you do it?

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Well well Bob, you have now conceded there are or is a shot angle and distance where number 6 shot has an edge over smaller sizes. You also agree that all other angles and distances 6, 7.5 or 8 it does not matter.

Why then if one can afford to use the generally more expensive number 6 shot why not use it and have whatever edge it provides?

The only reason to not use it is convenience and cost.

I will answer your more personal question via PM.

Considering where I live, southeastern NH, I think I do pretty well. This fall I have taken 453 crows and my hunting partner somewhere around 476. This has been a very good year and the birds more plentiful and we have pushed ourselves a little more to take advantage it. I realize TBC of one person to another and one location to another is hard to compare. Ideally I would like to hear from other crow hunters specifically from NH, Maine and MA. I don't need to hear what your TBC is but I would like to hear if you think our TBC's are good or not for the area. Certainly others from any part of the country are free to comment or compare. Please chime in.

NH is in my opinion a rather game poor state but we do have a variety of things to hunt, moose, bear, deer, salt water waterfowling, upland birds such as ruffed grouse and woodc.ock. By every measure of hunting NH is outclassed by other states.

We do have one big thing going for us. State law allows the right of trespass. That is unless property is legally posted/signed to the effect hunting and trespassing is prohibited it is open for use without vrebal or written permission from the landowner. I understand this is quite different than many other states.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 6th of November 2010 07:12:11 PM

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

The reason I would always go with the smaller shot sizes is because most guys who hunt crows are shooting them 30 yards and under. Now as there skill level gets better over the years they get more geared to the longer shots. On average I shoot around 400 crows a year that are beyond the 50 yard mark with 7 1/2's. The other 4,500 to 5,000 odd crows each season I shoot inside 40 yards.

If you have a particular gun that patterns 6's very well you can do it but this is not the norm. A lot depends on how well the gun patterns at 40 yards plus the shooters ability.

The main reason I take issue with you on this matter is because you do have a much better chance of killing crows with a more open choke with the smaller shot sizes in my humble opinion. The average shooter stands a much better chance for success when using improved cylender and using 8's or 7 1/2's at birds within 30 yards. It leaves more leeway for shooter error with a young shooter. A young shooter has much more of an edge shooting a trap or skeet load of 1 1/8 th ounces of 8's (460 pellets) as compared to 251 6's of the same shot charge. I will go with the number of pellets anyday.

Now in you're case you are talking about a specialized type of shotgunning where the shooting is beyond 40 yards. You like 6's I like 7 1/2's but that is not the point, you are sending the wrong message to the younger shooters thinking they should shoot 6's at any yardage when infact they will be greatly handicapped.

Sincerely,

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob I don't believe anyone is handicapped by the use of number 6 shot in a gun shooting 50% patterns (IC choke) at 30 yards and under. What may be true is that use of #6 in an IC choke starts to get to thin at 35 or 40 yards. The number 6 shooter must tighten up the pattern with more choke.

Conversely the 7.5's and 8's are running out of steam at ranges where number 6 remains very deadly.

To some degree you and I are handicapped to some extent by using full choke when birds are close and fast moving. But as experienced and accomplished shotgunners we are not all that handicapped on close ones, but we are armed with the best shotgunning tool for the long and tall ones. I get the greatest joy from thumping the long and tall ones so I'll take my occasional lump on the fast close bird that escapes to enjoy that.

BTW number 6 is not allowed in ATA trapshooting.

Bottom line any shooter who is going to attempt to take shots at those long and tall ones should go full choke and sixes to have the best chance.

I had a few good ones this morning. It's more fun when it was my turn to shoot second and I got to play clean up with the mighty 10 a few times on whatever was left of multiple birds heading out of town after my partner opened up on them. I always get a kick out of whackin a long one like that.

As far as handling 6 shot, my partner took my gun and patterned it at his house last spring as he has a setup along side his house to do that. I don't remember the exact % but the gun threw an 80+% pattern of 1 1/2 ounce of number 6 at 40 yards. It would be hell on a Turkey.

Bob · Guru

NH,

Well I suppose we have both beat this subject to death and can leave it up to everyone to decide for themselves what they want to use. I still think you are giving the younger shooters the wrong advise. But that is just my opinion!

Bob A.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

remember, i was a young shooter and i did find 6's were the best for me. like you said try it your self. in side 25 yds full choke and imp cyl. have a pattern dia of 21 inches and 24 inches ,about an 1 1/2 a side from one to the other. if your not on them, shot size does not matter. if you don't center them i would rather shoot 6's. 1 or 2 6's are better than 1 or 2 7 1/2's and at 25 to 30 yds there is no hole in your pattern that a crow can get out of by useing 6 shot. but try it you will see . i have even used 7 shot but 6 was the best.

jd1983 · Senior Member

I think a point needs made that just cause you say improved choke does not mean that if I screw in a improved choke and use the same shells with 6 shot the pattern will not be the same. To get the same density of pattern I may have to use modified out of the gun I shoot then again it may throw 6 shot like a 3 yr old kid throwing a hand full gravel. Test pattern at all ranges.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

jd1983 wrote:

I think a point needs made that just cause you say improved choke does not mean that if I screw in a improved choke and use the same shells with 6 shot the pattern will not be the same. To get the same density of pattern I may have to use modified out of the gun I shoot then again it may throw 6 shot like a 3 yr old kid throwing a hand full gravel. Test pattern at all ranges.

yes ,yes,you are so wright!!i test shoot alot and i find alot of guns shoot a lot tighter than the choke dia. good point!!! biggrin

Bob · Guru

10 GA & JD 1983,

I myself started out using 6's when I was around 15 years old and the funny thing about it was that I got the opposite results as NH claims. I had more birds sail off because not enough shot hit them to do a number on them, 6's got worse the longer the shot once the pattern started to open up. I mean seriously now what do you think is a very good confidence builder on crows, it isn't coarse shot because the patterns aren't dense enough. If you are using small shot and you hit em in the middle you can see that you really smoked the bird, this is a much better confidence builder for a young shooter.

You can say all you want about kinetic energy and the fact that a 6 has more energy down range than say a 7 1/2 but you still have to hit the mark down range and all the kinetic energy in the world isn't going to do you any good if the crow flies through the pattern.

The reason I mentioned to NH that I thought he was giving bad advise is because when he sings the praises of # 6's he is shooting a specialized barrel that happens to pattern 6's well, at least according to him that is. Some Parkers liked # 5's real well but the point is that anyone who reads what he has to say will more than likely be shooting 6's out of a 12 gauge not a 10 bore! If they shoot a 20 gauge it even gets worse!

In closing I want to say that there is no better time if you have any doubts about 6's v/s 7 1/2's 8's and even 9's to watch both dvd's "The Art of Crow Hunting" and "Crow Shooting" it will be a true eye opener because you can see what can be done with even # 9's out of a 20 gauge! In "The Art of Crow Hunting" you will see me taking them as they come not just shooting the gravy shots! In the 551 bird shoot try counting the seconds it takes for some of those birds to hit the ground using 7 1/2's & 8's. The choice is yours!

Sincerely,

Bob A.

Mike27 · Senior Member

NH,
Carrying on about 6 shot being the bone crushing master of the universe out of a 10 ga. and 1 1/4 oz. is not apples to apples. Adding an 1/8 oz. you are picking up 28 pellets effectively closing holes in the pattern trying to get back to a 7 1/2 pattern. I can use 1 5/8 of 4 shot and top your load. We are talking crows hear not pterodactyls. You like your 10 ga. and 6's, thats fine. I am going to guess that 80% of us use a 12 ga. and 7 1/2 to 8 shot, that is all that is needed to take a crow in most situations.

Live and let live,

Mike