Volume of pellets is only one side of the equation. More pellets that are not as capable of inflicting either traumatic shock or hydraulic shock at longer range (everything works at 20 yards) don't help you to knock more birds to the ground at longer ranges.
You can give up pellets as targets get larger. A wood duck and a crow have the same size body when plucked. Lead 6 was the ideal wood duck load in it's day.
Most 27 yard line handicap shooters I know shoot 7.5's rather than 8's. They need pellets capable of cracking the clay pigeon at the longer range so the centrifugal force of it's spinning tears it apart. The main reason it's harder to break a clay pigeon at long range is it has lost a lot of it's rotation. Same principle applies to live bird only instead you need pellets to get in deep enough to shock and destroy tissue.
If you want to kill more crows, practice, practice, practice all season long so that a tight choke is of almost no handicap at close range. Then load up that tight choke with larger shot to take advantage of the longer range ability. If you can't practice or never master a tighter choke stick with what helps (as you said) give more room for error; open choke and more pellets. A good shooter can shoot a round of skeet with a full choke gun and shoot about the same scores as IC. The difference is the targets are dust balls. Since most of us are not eating crows hitting them too hard is not a consideration.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 02:14:52 PM
Not talking 20 yds here. out past 40 yds. You brought up ducks. Ducks are tougher than crows and years back, guys took out ducks with 7 1/2's out past 40.
Mike according to the penetration tests conducted by Bob Brister referenced in his book on shotguns, 7.5 lead shot only got into the skin of the dead ducks they patterned at 40 yards. Anybody taking ducks out past 40 yards with 7.5 were apparently fortunate enough to get a few pellets into the head and neck. Brister's tests on lead shot penetration on ducks revealed 7.5's where wholey insufficient at 40 yards and beyond.
"Brister's test on lead shot penetration on DUCKS revealed 7.5s were wholey insufficient at 40 yards and beyond". This is not true when the target is a crow.
Use the most amount of pellets you and your gun can be effective with. You can now see the loss of shot from 8's to 6's, 209 pellets less.
Mike
mike, TEST<TEST<TEST there is NO hole big enough for a CROW to FLY out of with6'S at 50 yds or closer!!!!!!!! this would be like me saying 6's have more pellets than that but FACT DON"T LIE that is what all my test show is what i see
"Brister's test on lead shot penetration on DUCKS revealed 7.5s were wholey insufficient at 40 yards and beyond". This is not true when the target is a crow.
Skip my answer was a direct reply to Mike27's comments on ducks being shot at 40 yards and beyond effectively with 7.5 lead. Brister's results on ducks is valid to his post.
Not to be a wise guy. Please reference any test and actual data that show crows are easier to kill and more easier to penetrate than a comparable duck such as a wood duck.
I ask for this because I have come to learn there are myths in hunting and shooting many of us have or take for gospel because everyone says so. For instance I should have blown off my left hand some time ago from shooting a Twist Steel shotgun with nitro powder loads. Sound twist and damascus guns (without adequate barrel wall thickness) have been demonstrated safe to shoot with nitro powder loads that stay within the parameters of chamber pressures produced by the shells made during the period the damascus and twist barrels were produced.
Our deer season opens tomorrow and crow season has wound down but I am sure 10gaCrowshooter being a taxiderist will be lashing a crow carcass to his pattern board and pucking it after to see how deep the 7.5's got in when he has time and dead crow is handy.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 9th of November 2010 09:10:44 PM
Humm it went from ducks than back to crows lol. Heck patteren the gun and shot best that it does on what u are hunting . All i can say all ways have a safe hunt and just have fun in the out doors :)
Back in the 70's and 80's we carried a few shells loaded with 7.5's or 8's with us with for swatting crips. They worked great on a sitting duck when you had get pellets into the head and neck to finish them. Nobody I know used or would have used such a load on decoying or pass shooting ducks on the brakish waters I hunted. If they were decoying nobody wanted to fill up the breasts with so many pellets, if you were pass shooting the 7.5's would have been a very inferior load vs. 4's, 5's and 6's. I have been salt water duck hunter for a long time too.
NH, In your second post it says that 7 1/2's only got into the skin of a dead duck at 40 yds. Hence the word DEAD. Last post said you don't want to fill up the breast with so many pellets, that is exactly what you want. We are not eating crows and remember this is not about ducks. For years on everything from a .177 pellet on a squirrel to different size shot on waterfowl, kill speed is 600 f.p.s. and up.
A large amount of us shoot at 1200 f.p.s.
At 40 yds. 8 shot is still moving at 660 f.p.s. 7 1/2 shot is at 675 f.p.s.
Crows have fallen and will continue to fall with this loads.
Mike, Brister shot already dead domestic ducks for the test. The shot is not what killed them. They were shot to measure pellet penetration.
My point about not filling up the breast of ducks is at the closer ranges that 7.5's would be very lethal one would be putting more pellets into meat for the table. At long range the load was considered a crippler.
Yes you can never hit a crow too hard. At 30 yard and under choke and shot size is pretty much irrelevent but beyond that it matters and after 40 yards even more so.
BTW here are some helpful charts, as you can see in the chart below is for 7.5's and they are sub 600fps at 40 yards when starting out at 1200fps.
The chart below is for #6 shot. As you can see a #6 pellet strikes a target with 187% more energy than a 7.5 at 50 yards
The bottom line is; if you want to increase your TBC, practice all year until you are proficient on a round of skeet with a full choke gun say 20 out of 25 or better. Then load up with 6's and you will have the skill to handle the close ones and choke and shot to handle the longs ones with greater effectiveness.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 15th of November 2010 08:19:22 PM
nhc: I certainly agree with you that kinetic energy (ability to penetrate a target ) is big time important. I surely would rather be shot at 80 yards with a #8 vs. a #2!which brings me to this question. At what range do you believe # 7.5 or 8's run out of sufficient energy to kill a crow that leave the barrel at 1235 fps...or more?
Well Skip let's not use any of us for such a test LOL!
As you know there are many variables especially when a bird is not centered. Let me make a few observations first.
7.5's and 8's will remain deadly at longer range if the head and neck are effectively struck with a few pellets.
Few of us err in over leading a target meaning if the shooter misjudges the bird will more likely be hit in the guts than in the vitals.
More shooters than not tend to misjudge range taking longer shots than what they think.
My experience has been that when the range extends beyond 35 to 40 yards (in my estimate) I have experienced more birds that show signs of being hit, feathers in the air, leg hanging, bird exiting failing to gain or losing altitude, when small shot is used at trap and skeet shell velocities. Switching to #6 has produced for me an observable reduction in this happening.
I also think it is worth mentioning you stated 1235 fps or more. In 1 1/8 ounce 12ga loads that is faster than the 3 dram loading of the various 4 packs sold by Federal and Winchester, and faster than 3 dram STS or AA's. As know in shotguns speed kills but it also can kill patterns and good patterns are necessary for long range shooting.
Crow hunters who don't reload are much more limited in the performance choices of their ammunition. Fella's shooting off the shelf ammo are generally limited to 1200 and 1145 fps quality loads, AA and STS, same velocity on the value packs. Faster velocities are advertised on the less expensive game loads but the use of soft shot makes them substandard performers in my experience.
I believe I am a pretty decent shot and I can't center every bird I shoot at. Its the crows that are hit but not centered where larger shot brings an advantage, more so the longer the range.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 16th of November 2010 03:53:44 PM
What a silly argument. 40 yards is way too far to be shooting crows with any load.
I laugh when I hear about guys regularly shooting anything 40 yards and beyond. I have taken many so called dead eyed shooters out to a tower shoot and they hit 1 in 10 shots.
Not many people have a clue how far 40 yards is when a bird is flying. Personally I would never even shoot at any bird that is 40 yards away let alone a crow.
I have taped off many of so called 50 yard shots that that were just over 35 yards.
When you think you have this shooting game figured out take a day and head out to your sporting clays course and shoot crosser's at 35 yards and see just how you do.
Try the trap range at the 27 yard line and see how many you break.
Saying that, I shoot 7 1/2 and 8 shot at crows and kill everything I hit within real hunting ranges.
Next time your out crow hunting use your range finder and see just how far the tree tops are from your hide. We use ours every hunt.
Nothing better than a coupe of crows back peddling at 15 yards.
I'll definitely agree most people can't judge distance to save their a$$, but I also think a 45-55 yard shot is makeable because I've done it and seen it done many times. Skill and confidence kills are made at all distances with all shot sizes. Shoot what works for you and your confidence level. I like #8's because 95% of our shots are inside 30 yards but we can still kill the occasional 35-45 yard bird. If 95% of our shots were 45-55 yards I'd use full and #6's. This is the same as people saying a .243 is to small 4 deer, BS.
-- Edited by watch em fall on Tuesday 16th of November 2010 05:43:10 PM
__________________
whatever i'm doing i'm thinking about crow hunting
Kevin it is far from a silly argument. 40 yards is not a stretch of a shot if someone shoots all year long and gets familiar with their gun. 40 yards is the standard for pattern tests, and full chokes shooting 70% and better are perfectly suited for it and for a little longer. If you are not comfortable with your success on the long shots, don't take them, stay within what you feel is a reasonable hunting range for you. That range maybe different for another gunner and gun/load.
I am sure that most dead eyed shooters as you call them hit 1 in 10 in a tower shoot. I see something similiar every year where I run a trap range, shooters coming out a week or two before the season to shoot a little practice and breaking scores that are often embarrassing.
I'll take a shot at any crow at 40 yards that won't come in any closer. If it's a high overhead floater or slow flying bird at a shallow angle I'll stretch it to 50+ yards. This is why I so enjoy the performance of 2 7/8" 10ga.
I shoot a pretty decent round of sporting clays and know that 35 yard crossers are tough, but not that tough when you figure out the proper lead.
27 yard trap line, I can do OK there but I only made it back to the 25 yard line for my handicap in the ATA. In fact when are fooling around with our old tens last summer we stepped off to the 34 yards (ran out of room) and shot them with 1 1/8 and 1 ounce loads and had a blast practicing on the long ones.
Yes there is something more satisfying than a back peddler at 15 yards, that is pulling feathers and dropping one straight down from 40 to 60 yards overhead.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 16th of November 2010 06:06:40 PM
Well I have shot my fair share of sporting clays and FITASC. On registered targets I am a mid 80ies shooter. I'm old and hate recoil. You guys are welcome to shoot at all the high ones you like.
The very best crow shooter around here shoots a 20 ga. I wonder why.
Post up a big pile of crows shot at 40 plus and you will have a audience. Everything else is just supposition.
We are very close in age. You might enjoy shooting my old 10ga double, with 1 1/4 ounce loads at 1175 fps it produces 16 ft lbs of recoil, 2 pounds less recoil than a 7 1/2 pound 12ga shooting 1 1/8 ounce at 1200 fps.
The very best shooter, how do you measure that? By number of birds killed? I am confident that many of us could give that shooter a run for his money if we had the same target rich environment. Best and most are not necessarily synonymous. I don't doubt Bob is an outstanding shot and may be better than me shot for shot but you are comparing apples in oranges with your measurement.
As far as a big pile of crows shot at 40 plus, I believe it is a very fair estimate that 30% of the birds I killed were 40+ yard shots and 10gacrowshooter can attest to that. I shot 53% for kill to shot ratio this fall and most of that was shooting with 2 people in the blind, which makes a high average difficult given every other time there were multiple birds I was shooting after another gun had gone off.. My average when hunting alone was quite a bit higher. 10gacrowshooter can hold his own too but I don't think he kept as detailed records as I did. He had some very good days too.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 16th of November 2010 08:36:36 PM
NH, I don't know where your velocity charts came from. I've been digging around looking for charts and posts and they are not to easy to find. I came up with 3 different results.
All at 40 yds.
My original post at 1200 fps
1220 fps 8's 665 fps
1235 fps 8's 675 fps
1240 fps 7 1/2 690 fps
And why stop there, your 6's have 87% not 187% more energy than 7 1/2's at 50 yds.
The tables I posted are data from the Shotshell Ballistics for Windows created by Ed Lowry.
You are correct I misspoke, a number 6 has 187% of the energy of a number 7.5 at 50 yards; 1.4/.75 - 1.866 or 187%. That is still significant. it's close to double.
