Crow Busters Forum

8fishermen · Guru

How to lead a crow in a perfect world.

ublycrow · Veteran Member

I like your insanity.

I have a friend just like you. He has a 6 pin bow site and he shoots arrows out to 100 yards and he knows the wind drift and arrow drop over a 100 yard distance with a 450 grain arrow.

I'm being humorous ...but serious about saying your post has good info !

I think you have a great presentation here under the right circumstances....

I agree on the info you have provided and I actually shoot the same load.

-------

Here is how I roll out on the crows considering a 30 mph fly by right to left, or left to right.

1) When they are in my lap (10 yards) - I doubled tap the 12 gauge 6 inchs off their nose. Bird Falls

2) At 20 yards I hold about "a foot and a half of air space off their nose... and tap 2 rounds on the 12 gauge. Birds may fall on first shot.

3) I don't know when a bird is 30 or 40 yards, but I insinctively know that it is somewhere in this range in the heat of the moment. At this range I double or triple tap the 12 gauge with a hold somewhere around 2-3 feet.

4) With a full choke on birds flying away on an angle I've flipped them at 50 yards with 4 foot lead and 2 to 3 pulls on the 12.

When I mention double or triple tapping on birds..this only means that I aim to quick fire on birds in this fasion..if I see the bird fall I retract back from firing more. I always come full force on birds when they hit the zone and never get lazy on my trigger. This is just my style that works for me.

Along these lines I miss as well. Based on too much coffee or reasons I can't explain.

Good Post!

Brian

-- Edited by ublycrow on Friday 28th of January 2011 03:00:49 AM

crow commander · Senior Member

to greg so just like ur shot will gain a inch every yd. u will also put a birds length for every 10 yds. out. i like these little formulas u have. it def gives me something to work off of in the field. i have def not got shooting aerial targets down. this will boost my confidence & give me a game plan.

as for brian i didnt know u could double tap birds. lol i never thought of that & i shoot a semiautomatic. i shoot & look around & shoot again i guess. lol i got plenty of shells. this is my new strategy as well.

thanks to both u guys. i will b going in the morning & i am mentally ready. (i hope)

8fishermen · Guru

CC,

This is a THEORY! Don't take this a gospel as MANY variables will apply!! I mainly threw this out there so I could get my mind around the concept of shot speed versus bird speed and the approximate lead. It was to generate conversation about the topic. Don't get too carried away just yet till some with lot more experience than I chime in.

8fishermen · Guru

CC,

BTW, the "gain an inch" was base on a full choke

nhcrowshooter · Guru

You are overthinking things, NONE of the stuff posted matters nor will it help you hit crows. Shotguns are pointed rather than aimed, you have to learn to shoot them instinctively not deliberately. The science of minute details critical to rifle shooting matter not with a scattergun. Spend your summer shooting all the trap, skeet, and sporting clays you can, then you will start hitting more crows.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 28th of January 2011 10:41:58 AM

8fishermen · Guru

NC,

I do shoot instinctively. Last time out in one stretch I killed 9 crows with 10 shots literally as fast as I could load the gun, two sets of quads with a double hit in between. The purpose of this was to get an idea of how far to lead birds at a distance on a perfect crossing shot. Anything close is point and shoot. I am tyring to get better at the 30 - 50 yard shots and just looking for a reference point. I don't think for one moment you could create the above "data" in a lab, much less in the field. I will let you know how it turns out.

Mostly it was just to satisfy my curiosity of flight speeds.

All this is fun when sitting at home with no crows to kill. In the field all this goes out the window and instinct takes over.

The other point of this is to stir a debate and see if there is a rule of thumb that others go by. I have ask this question on lead before and no one was able to give me an answer. We do it everyday and it works, I want to know why it works.

Thank you for your input and I hope others will join.

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:11:48 AM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

It works in the field because the human brain remains a wonderful computer but it needs to see success over and over again to develop both muscle and mental memory of where the gun needs to be relative to the height, speed, angle (all of which can be changing) when the decision is made to shoot.

Practice, practice, practice.

To quote the late great shooter Fred Kimble, "The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice."

The rest of this stuff is naval gazing as far as I am concerned.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 28th of January 2011 12:32:27 PM

8fishermen · Guru

I went out this morning to a place I knew I would have more long shots than close. I have thought for a while I was missing bird by shooting ahead of them on the long shots. So today I shortened my lead and it helped. I am not saying I was anywhere close to perfect today. But at least I was getting feathers between 30 and 50 yards with a few down. The angling away shot I Greatly improved on. Now, I only killed 14 this morning so it remains to be seen if this will work again. I did take the birds and pick out two that were average size for the bunch. Some of the 14 were fish crow and other not. The length of those two birds were 17 1/2" and 17 3/4" so that's close to he 18" I estimated.

NC, I am not hitting birds with consistency at longer ranges. On one seems to have an answer for lead at those distances. Everyone says the same thing you do. All I am trying to do is create a starting point to work from. It seams it worked for the angling away getting the heck out out of dodge shots. I have never been able to hit those but by tightening up on the lead I killed 4 this morning. That is an improvement and all I am looking for.

I AM NOT saying this is a recipe for success. As you said, PRACTICE it the only remedy for that. But if I can practice smarter, I will.

Again, Thanks for your reply.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Here is a measure I use. A man who at the end of the season killed 1 crow regardless of range for every 4 shells is about average. 1 for 3 exceptional, 1 for 2 a master of the gun, better than 1 for 2, a god with gun.

Keep at it, there is no better practice than live wing shooting smile

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 28th of January 2011 02:01:23 PM

Bob · Guru

On the subject of "Lead" :

One man can teach the fundamentals such as stance, proper gun mounting, having a shotgun that fits you well, and what choke and shot size for the task at hand. One man can also watch the pupil to see if he or she is raising there heads as the shot is being fired at the target. The instructor can also watch for the muzzle stopping or coasting to a stop which results in "shooting behind the bird"

But it is very difficult for one man to teach another how to shoot a shotgun very well. The reason is because everyone has differen't sets of reflexes and timing!

I remember many years ago the instructor said "give the birds a 3 foot lead at station 4 on a skeet field" When I started to come into my own I found that I didn't hardly lead the birds at all from station 4. As soon as I saw just a slight bit of daylight in front of the bird I'd slap the trigger and the target would be toast! The reason for such a difference here is that I'm a fast swinger so I don't need the lead a slower swinger does on the same target. This is why I say that it is very difficult for one man to teach another how to shoot well, you just have to learn at you're own speed over time.

If a fella is a fast swinger he does not need much lead on targets or live birds under 25 yards.

I am much more deliberate on far and high birds because it's a much more exacting type of shooting.

It will all come in time, if it was easy everyone would be good! This holds true for any sport where hand to eye coordination come into play.

Bob A.

Mainehunt · Guru

Bob, I'm glad you just wrote that about some people needing less of a lead. If a bird is 20 yards or under, I pull the trigger when the bead "hits the Beak."

Many times I think about how far I lead a bird after kiling it, but I can't remember.

You ever do that?

Kev
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Bob · Guru

Hi Kev,

On close quarter shots under 20 yards I come from behind the bird with my muzzle going a lot faster than the bird is flying and touch off the shot when I'm on him dead center. The time lapse from my brain to my trigger finger gives me a built in lead.

When I mentioned that the instructor told me to give the birds on station 3 a 3 foot lead he gave the best advise he could as that is what many shooters need to hit that target. I might be 3 feet in front of it myself but it sure dosen't look that way to me when I shoot the target. The reason is because I'm swinging fast on the clay target and I couldn't tell you either how much of a lead I just gave the target; it's all feel!

Bob A.

shaddart · Guru

8fish, cool info, but dude u have way to much time on ur hands!!LOL

8fishermen · Guru

shaddart wrote:

8fish, cool info, but dude u have way to much time on ur hands!!LOL

biggrin biggrin biggrin I don't watch TV.

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Friday 28th of January 2011 09:47:57 PM

shotgunshooter12 · Veteran Member

ive shot alot of clay targets in my life, shooting in many competitions. i one one key thing that wasnt discussed very much here is-FOLLOW THRU! this is way Bob is so successful.as he mentioned , he has a very FAST & AGGRESSIVE swing and remember (what's in motion tends too stay in motion) so Bobs gun is going to be very hard to stop.so he will naturally have a very smooth FOLLOW-THRU after he has pulled the trigger.and if you stop and think about it. . .if you barrel is still moving after you have pulled the trigger-what will happen to your shot pattern? it will produce what is called a Shot String. a long HORIZONTAL string of shot that will cover a much larger area in front of the bird for it too fly into. so if you are stoping your gun when you pull the trigger, Like you've hit an imaginary brick wall, then your shot pattern also stops.so Aggressive shooters are always more consistant shooters because they keep their gun moving. too practice breaking this bad habit when you shoot a bird successfully keep following the dead bird,with your barrel, all the way to the ground.also try to keep BOTH eyes open,you will have a much better Sight-Picture between the bird and your barrel.THE OLE' SQUINT EYE WILL KILL YA. And get rid of the Gigantic Hi-Viz sight and stick with the factory metal bead or the SMALLEST hi-viz you can find. all that being said I Still Miss Too- but this will help anyone be a better shooter.

shotgunshooter12 · Veteran Member

p.s. : i wish these tips would help me be a better typist!!

watch em fall · Senior Member

Very well said shannon, I think an aggessive shooting style is a good choice on crows.Because good shots must be taken decisively and swiftly to connect regularly on crows. Besides anyone who "never misses" is either a liar or they never shoot (ha ha). I know all shooters use different styles and techniques to improve, and I guess hearing many styles helps you to understand what is or isn't working for you and perhaps why

.

Glen · Senior Member

Very good reading here. How about hold over on those long shots? Are you holding above any of those 30-50yd birds?

nhcrowshooter · Guru

shotgunshooter12 wrote:

if you barrel is still moving after you have pulled the trigger-what will happen to your shot pattern? it will produce what is called a Shot String. a long HORIZONTAL string of shot that will cover a much larger area in front of the bird for it too fly into. so if you are stoping your gun when you pull the trigger, Like you've hit an imaginary brick wall, then your shot pattern also stops.so Aggressive shooters are always more consistant shooters because they keep their gun moving. too practice breaking this bad habit when you shoot a bird successfully keep following the dead bird,with your barrel, all the way to the ground.also try to keep BOTH eyes open,you will have a much better Sight-Picture between the bird and your barrel.THE OLE' SQUINT EYE WILL KILL YA. And get rid of the Gigantic Hi-Viz sight and stick with the factory metal bead or the SMALLEST hi-viz you can find. all that being said I Still Miss Too- but this will help anyone be a better shooter.

Ok a couple of things. First in order to shoot with both eyes open a shooter must have their dominant eye on the same side as his dominant hand. There are plenty of people who are cross dominant and must shoot with one eye. If the don't they are not looking down the rib.

If you want to test yourself for your dominant eye, point at a distant object with the index finger of your dominant hand with both eyes open. If your right handed close your left eye, if your index finger is dead on the object you have a dominant right eye. If you finger jumps to the side, you are right handed and left eye dominant.

If you are sugggesting that one can swing a shotgun fast enough to impart the effect of hose spraying water and stretch a shot string left or right you are mistaken, it's impossible, it's been disproven, the shot clears the barrel too fast for anything but a minute effect. Read Brister's book among others "Shotgunning the Art and Science." Yes keep the gun moving is paramount but that is too maintain lead. Also important, keep wood to wood, don't lift your head off the stock in anticipation of the shot, if you do gauranteed miss.

Beads are for checking and insuring your gun mount ie. head down tight, no rib showing. I have had and seen others shoot some great scores after banging the end of the barrel and breaking or losing their bead.

Again it's shotgun not a rifle, it is instinctive shooting, form is everything, accessories outside barrel and choke meaningless gadgets for those looking for a magic bullet to improve their performance. Again, practice and practice some more.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 28th of January 2011 11:55:59 PM

8fishermen · Guru

Glen wrote:

Very good reading here. How about hold over on those long shots? Are you holding above any of those 30-50yd birds?

The chart I was using for the info above shows a 6" drop at 50 yards, but If you stop and think the pattern on a full choke at that didstanc it approching 4'. The drop kinda gets swallowed up in the pattern at that distance.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8fishermen wrote:

Glen wrote:

Very good reading here. How about hold over on those long shots? Are you holding above any of those 30-50yd birds?

The chart I was using for the info above shows a 6" drop at 50 yards, but If you stop and think the pattern on a full choke at that didstanc it approching 4'. The drop kinda gets swallowed up in the pattern at that distance.

Stop overthinking, again it's a shotgun not a rifle. Many guns are stocked to shoot slightly high, straighter stocks less drop at comb and heel, maybe 60/40 high. Even without that the pattern is an expanding circle and at longer range the circle has widened and offset and drop of the shot string.

shotgunshooter12 · Veteran Member

if you do find that you are cross-eye dominate you can try using a fiber optic bead that ''hides'' the front portion of the bead back under the metal tube alittle bit.benelli's Tom Napp has one on the market and hi-viz has one called the Magni-Optic.these force the shooter to look down the rib or else you can't see the sight. so NO GLOW/ NO GO. many cross-eyes i shoot with sware by them. as far as the ''shot-string ''goes , the guys on the skeet range live & breathe this moto . scientifically proven or not a MOVING gun barrel is always better than than one that comes to a Dead stop. good Follow-Thru is key

8fishermen · Guru

In the Navy we worked off two bearings. The first was "True Bearing" and due north was the focus point. The second was "Relative Bearing" and referenced the bow of the ship as the focus point. The first was used for navigation and the second was used to reference something in relation to the ship heading.

After reading all the post I think what we are discussing are two separate things. What I described in the first post I will call True Lead. It is a distance of 7' and does not change. Whether the bird is coming toward you, away from you, quartering or crossing, diving or rising, the distances it will travel before intersecting the shot is 7'.

The second is what Bob and NC are talking about and I will call it Relative Lead. It is the lead that the eye needs to see in order to put the shot on the mark. Lots of things go into that sight window as have been discussed and I agree with y'all on what has been said.

Think of it this way, the first lead discussed are the hard components of the shot. The second is the soft components of the shot. This is where the science of the shot meets the art of the shot. In the nautical terms it would be when true and relative bearings both read 0 deg.

Example: Bob's station 3 shot
He was instructed to shoot 3' in front of the target but he felt more comfortable with a faster swing and a shorter perceived lead. The fact is either way that shot has to meet the clay about 3' in front of where it is when the shot is fired.

This is why I love crow hunting some much, I am very interested in both science and art-forms and crow hunting satisfies both needs. I have as much fun prepairing for a hunt as I do hunting.

shotgunshooter12 · Veteran Member

then you probably also studied what i think they refer to as Negative-Lead. this is the lead that is used when shooting from a moving target ,such as a helicopter.where the shooter actually has to shoot behind the target as the rounds are 'thrown' (for lack of a better term) forward into the target. if shots are fired straight at the target they will miss every time,going past the target.that d@mn science!!!! should have paid more attention in class but back then the girls were more interesting.but i guess you kinda had to ''Lead'' them too.

8fishermen · Guru

shotgunshooter12 wrote:

then you probably also studied what i think they refer to as Negative-Lead. this is the lead that is used when shooting from a moving target ,such as a helicopter.where the shooter actually has to shoot behind the target as the rounds are 'thrown' (for lack of a better term) forward into the target. if shots are fired straight at the target they will miss every time,going past the target.that d@mn science!!!! should have paid more attention in class but back then the girls were more interesting.but i guess you kinda had to ''Lead'' them too.

I never thought about negitive lead! That's a cool concept! Have any of you seen the pig video in Texas where they are eradicating wild pigs with a chopper and AR's and AK's. Cool video.

shotgunshooter12 · Veteran Member

was the chopper sponsered by OSCAR MAYER?!

8fishermen · Guru

shotgunshooter12 wrote:

was the chopper sponsered by OSCAR MAYER?!

Ill try to find it. It is worth watching.

8fishermen · Guru

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiHmYsyVniE&feature=player_detailpage

The ultimate job! Lets just say dude know how to lead one! biggrin

Lone Star Phil · Senior Member

Eight:

You've received a lot of great advice.

In the typical ambush hunting the Texas Crow Patrol seeks, if you've done a good job on the kill box site selection, head-to-toe camouflage, proper blind location, taking into account the position of the sun and presence/absence of cloud cover, set out a productive decoy display and creating some accommodating calling, most of the shots you will be presented with be outstreached wings, flaps down and minimal airspeed. When presented with that shooting problem, toss the numbers to the side and shoot him in the head.

Any thing else is a dove shoot with larger and slower birds.

Kevin Burroughs · Veteran Member

Move, mount and shoot.

The longer the gun is on your shoulder the more things go wrong.

Think about your lead, you miss. look at your bead, the gun stops and you miss.

Shooting is a lot like golf, you have to practice to stay on top of your game.

Being a great shot is not trying to shoot out of your skill set.

----------kevin----------

jd1983 · Senior Member

As far as cross eyed dominate I installed a brass mid bead and a green front fiber optic bead. When they are lined up strait you really can't see the front bead. I know then what's the sense of the fiber front bead right?
I know right away that if I can see lots of bright green at the end of the barrel I am off mount. It's easier on the brain than to have a high biz mid bead and a brass or pearl front. Where in that set up you could get off track and in the heat of the moment not realize it.

But then again on most shots if I think about the bead or lead the bird flies away. And I've caught a few flipping me off as they leave. ;)

Skip · Guru

What an excellent topic... and one very well addressed! Obiviously, the finest shotgun, the finest ammo etc.. is all for naught IF you cannot figure out lead because you will not hit a moving target IF you do not lead it properly. Loading all this "data" into each individuals fire control computer (brain) might help but as almost everyone has said.. nothing replaces practice!

Two related points, often misunderstood, here if I may: shot string and velocity vs. lead. Given todays fine ammo, shot string is basically a non-consideration. The "strings" are so short, assuming the use of high antimony (hard) shot, it cannot be counted on to hit a target that you have lead too much, for example. In my book, forget shotstring as a variable in lead.

Secondly, and by far the most important is how much the lead changes as a function of shot velocity. I have read many posts over the years and had lots of conversations that tout how faster loads make huge cuts in lead. Note 8fisherman data, 1350 fps vs. 1200 fps reduces lead at 50 yards by ony 7 inches...or less than half a crow length. With the typical "shot" at crows being in the 25-35 range, that difference drops to 2-3 inches. I know I cannot distinguish a 7"difference at 50 yards in lead much less 2 inches at 30 yards in the scant second or seconds I have to make the shot. Since most all crow loads are within those velocities I completely discount velocity as a factor in determing lead. There are other more important things to consider at that moment!! biggrin

-- Edited by Skip on Saturday 29th of January 2011 05:47:07 PM

crow commander · Senior Member

jd1983, they flip me off all the time too. lol

greg, i went out yesterday morning & we got 4. we shot about 50 times too. lol (out of a buddy deerstand) its our favorite spot. i know i shot 2 on my own cause my cousin didnt shoot. (gun malfunction) thats alot for me. actually my record for crows. u told me not to hold ur topics to true in the field but it works for me. the 2 i shot was what i call midrange in my head & put a 2' lead on them & they spun like a top. it was great. i feel like a master wing shooter when i hit a flying bird. lol the others that i missed. i dont remember what happened to much adrenaline & laughing. also wanted to say we killed 4 crows, 1 squirrel, 1 coyote, 2 possums, & missed 2 quail today & yesterday. i love hunting!

Crowtec · Veteran Member

8fisherman, Thanks for posting the lead-data...I like bird-length lead concept...I think one point that needs to be considered especially on crows that are out beyond 35 yards...is ones depth perception...an ability to quickly and accurately gage distance and apply proper lead is certainly easier said than done...when shooting the crow we do not have terrain or any other reference point to help us determine distance...this gets more difficult the further away target is...just some more food for thought on this topic.....Crowtec

8fishermen · Guru

Crowtec,

The lack of reference point is a great addition to this debate. The common consensus seems to be if less than 30 yards, point and shoot or use the swing through lead method. Past 30 it becomes a different story. Most people, from my experience which is limited, seem to use a constant lead when the bird is out past 30.

Without a reference point, there is no way to teach another how to estimate the proper lead at longer distances. I was looking for something that would help me put more birds in the dirt at longer distances. It has helped me figure out I was leading birds too far, especially on the quartering/slightly angling away shots.

I do not discount the benefit of practice, I just don't accept the idea that it is all feel. Some, if not all can be learned from others if they are able to communicate what they are doing when they "feel" the shot. It is a rarity that a person has the ability to do a task in a superb way AND be able to explain to another HOW they do it.

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 02:44:21 AM

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 02:45:45 AM

Skip · Guru

8fishermen: Your observation "It is a rarity that a person has the ability to do a task in a superb way AND be able to explain to another HOW they do it" is an excellent statement and true though I wish it wasn't for obvious reasons! For starters, we could all quickly benefit from instruction from any of our "long shot experts". I suspect however since we all have physical differences connected to how each of us visually perceives moving targets, learning how to become proficient with those 35+ yd. shots is primarily a function of practice.

For what it is worth, learning to master the long rifle shot that includes the effects of windage, light, and bullet drop among other stuff, is tough to teach as well. It just takes practice.

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8fishermen wrote:

Crowtec,

The lack of reference point is a great addition to this debate. The common consensus seems to be if less than 30 yards, point and shoot or use the swing through lead method. Past 30 it becomes a different story. Most people, from my experience which is limited, seem to use a constant lead when the bird is out past 30.

Without a reference point, there is no way to teach another how to estimate the proper lead at longer distances. I was looking for something that would help me put more birds in the dirt at longer distances. It has helped me figure out I was leading birds too far, especially on the quartering/slightly angling away shots.

I do not discount the benefit of practice, I just don't accept the idea that it is all feel. Some, if not all can be learned from others if they are able to communicate what they are doing when they "feel" the shot. It is a rarity that a person has the ability to do a task in a superb way AND be able to explain to another HOW they do it.

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 02:44:21 AM

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Tuesday 1st of February 2011 02:45:45 AM

There are many people who can teach another person technique, but nobody can teach you talent. Many of the great trapshooters, Frank Little, Kay Ohye, Nora Ross etc ran or run trapshooting clinics. Many of their students improve their skills. Few and far between are students who go on to be All-State and All-American shooters. The ability to be an outstanding wingshoot is when refined skill combines with a gift from God.

Ask the truly outstanding shots in the various disciplines what their eyesight is, you will find an above average number have 20-10, 20-12 and 20-15 vision. That is one gift that is hard to overcome if you don't have it yourself.