Crow Busters Forum

Skip · Guru

Shot size vs. pellet count vs. choke constriction vs. killing a crow at long distances

Bob · Guru

A 3 dram trap load in 7 1/2's or 8's has worked very well for me at anything from point blank on out to 65 yards. The greater bulk of my shots are under 40 yards during the season. I shot close to 5,000 crows last season with 7 1/2's and 8's and out of that perhaps four to five hundred were killed beyond 55 to 60 yards.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Hey Bob, just curious when shooting as many crows in a single day as you do, how do you keep count of your kills and misses?

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

I have a clicker in the blind and everytime I take one out I hit the clicker. I only count the ones I see go down, they don't get clicked unless they hit the ground; so my counts are on the conservative side. I can figure the percentage by the amount of empty boxes I shoot on any given day afield.

Bob A.

jonthepain · Guru

Skip, didn't you do a study of this a couple of years ago?

Maybe it was patterning... I can't quite remember.

Skip · Guru

Patterning...

-- Edited by Skip on Sunday 6th of March 2011 07:56:36 PM

Bob · Guru

Jon,

You can read this in the "Advanced Techniques Section" on the Home Page. It's headline is "Shotshell Selection 1 & 2" very good read and most informative.

Bob A.

shaddart · Guru

skip, IMO most factory loads in 7 1/2s & 8s are not loaded with hardened or magnum shot. I've been loading 5s & 6s, 1 1/4 oz 28 grains of wsf powder, & have been quite pleased with them. I think when the 5s are gone I'll stick with the 6s, I think that the larger hardened pellets carry more velocity down range. To be fair, most (90%) of my shots are 40 plus yards. Pellet count is why I went up to 1 1/4 oz loads. Just my opinion, I think everyone has to figure out what loads work best for them, if I had decoying birds right in my face, I'm sure I'd be shooting lighter loads.

shaddart · Guru

Skip, I forgot the choke part, I've been using the same chokes I do for ducks, carlson mid & long rane blackcloud chokes. The mid is mod & the long range is a little tighter kinda imp/mod. I forget the actual constrictions.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

From another post on Chip's 1002 bird season.

chip wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Troy I shoot Remington Gun clubs mainly, 7.5's 3 drams and an ounce and 1/8 of shot. If you start shopping now you will find the bargains. If you find them for under 60 a case buy all you can afford or all you can haul. I did get a deal on some Estate 6's in December. They were 48 bucks a case, I could not pass it up so I bought 5 cases. The number 6 shot did a better job on the crows as far as kill to cripple ratio but it is a cheaper made load and only the Remingtons have the power piston wad. I have learned that a shells wad is a major component to the shell. Most guy's don't give ammo a thought in Febuary and March but I look for bargains year round. I buy a lot of fishing gear in August but that is only after I look for a good buy on ammo

jonthepain · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:

From another post on Chip's 1002 bird season.

chip wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but I look for bargains year round.

now there's a word to the wise. appeals to the scottish in me

Mike27 · Senior Member

Skip,

Shot size is the bigger issue on both. I don't like the drop in pellet count going larger than 7 1/2's. You can still reach out and touch them. Mostly mod. choke and 7 1/2's, but 8's and imp. sometimes.

Mike

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Mike27 wrote:

Skip,

Shot size is the bigger issue on both. I don't like the drop in pellet count going larger than 7 1/2's. You can still reach out and touch them. Mostly mod. choke and 7 1/2's, but 8's and imp. sometimes.

Mike

There can be more than enough crow killing pellets using larger than #7.5 shot. Here is a 40 yard pattern of 7/8 #6 from a 20ga.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 7th of March 2011 03:37:51 PM

Mike27 · Senior Member

shaddart,

You said pellet count is why you went to 1 1/4 loads. A 1 1/8 oz. of 7 1/2 has a lot pellets than your 1 1/4 oz. 5's and 6's.
5's at 215 and 6's at 279 in a 1 1/4 load.
7 1/2's are at 388 in 1 1/8 load.
Plus you save money, lead is the biggest cost in reloading. Every 9 loads a 1/8 oz. reduction gives you an extra shell.
Try a box of good 7 1/2's to see if you like them before you buy a bag of shot.

Mike

NHCrow · Veteran Member

I personally don't like to give up the pellet count for larger shot size. I felt that I shoot more birds dead with 7.5 shot or smaller. I used to go with number 4, 5, and 6 shot but it seemed to me that I missed more birds than I hit at any given distance. When I feel like the birds are hanging up outta range I usually change tactics or move my shooting position. When going long or going home are my only options I choose a tighter choke. I have had decent success with a turkey choke at long range but I have to be spot on when the birds are close.

M12Shooter · Guru

Interesting thread with respect to shot size, choke constriction and it's relation to shooting birds at longer range. I personally would not sacrifise a denser pattern of fine shot for larger shot size when shooting a bird as fragile as a crow longish ranges.

Most, myself included, cannot point that well as to centre a bird within a patern on a continueous basis at long range. Fringe hits are very common when attempting the aformentioned. Therefore, IMO a fringe hit with fine shot would be more likely to put pellets into a bird in a fatal capacity than the same with a larger shot size and it's corresponding smaller pellet count.

One can pattern on paper all day long and come to all kinds of vary valid conclusions. But, this same person firing on high overhead passing crows moving at 35 mph with a 10 mph cross wind would be apples and oranges in my book! smile

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I have shot a lot of crows over a lot of years, not as many as some but more than most. Shot a lot of registered trap too. Shot a lot of 3 dram 7.5 AA's (before Rem STS and Nitro 27's were invented) at crows. Regardless of gun and choke I observed more birds hit and not downed with target size shot, 7.5's and 8 vs. number 6. Whether it's 7/8 ounce loads out of 20 or 1 1/4 ounce out of 10ga switched to 6's years ago and saw improved performance overall. I have always shot tight chokes under the theory you can never hit a crow too hard. Crow hunters who do not reload have fewer options and most seem to stick with target loads, not with performance as the first criterea for selection but for the convenience and price of purchase. It would be interesting to see thoughts and the results if Winchester and Federal 4 box value packs were available in #6 or if AA and STS/Nitro 27's came in a #6 offering. If they did I really believe there would be different opinions on the use of #6.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 7th of March 2011 06:33:12 PM

Skip · Guru

nhcs: A 7/8 oz of 6's...is about 200 pellets. From what I can see on your target, there are about 120 "marked" holes. Perhaps there are more unmarked. My guess is you were using a choke tighter than IC or perhaps even mod?

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:

nhcs: A 7/8 oz of 6's...is about 200 pellets. From what I can see on your target, there are about 120 "marked" holes. Perhaps there are more unmarked. My guess is you were using a choke tighter than IC or perhaps even mod?

skip

Skip we have been over this before last fall. My hunting partner only marked the pellet holes with a pencil that were on or near the crow silouette. If you blow the picture up you can see other holes in the 30 inch circle that were not marked. The pattern if I remember correctly was mid 70 percentile. The choke used is full which is pretty much all we use, personnally I find full choke to be of no real handicap on the close birds but invaluable on the far ones.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

hi, the point is that bigger shot has to many holes in pattern. the crow target shows it does not and yes that had 72 % in the 30 inch target(did not mark all holes). 65 yds with 7 1/2 got to see that and imp cyl too. i am going to shoot a test pattern at 65 yds with 1 1/8 oz 7 1/2 12 ga. mod . i will keep you posted. i have shot enough crows with 7 1/2 to see a BIG dif from how 6 shot hits them. even better than 7 shot and i use alot of that in oct. (when i switch to my 20 ga) when they are in close. 10 ga

Troy Seal · Senior Member

I like #6s but 1 1/4 oz. loads kick like a mad mule after a while in my light inertia gun. I shoot nitro 27s in 7.5s most of the time. I have killed the $h1t out of them with both. I shoot an imp mod choke all the time. If they're close I turn them into a limp dishrag. If they're out there (past 40) I can bring them down if Im shooting good. I have killed more crows with 3" #3s in steel shot with a lite mod choke than anything else, while hunting the wiley mallard. I dont care if its 7.5 or 6s as long as the pattern is on'em they go down. Me and Knobby are getting into reloading and Im gonna load some #7s. Right in between 8s and 6s best of both worlds, should pattern good and have knock down. I have shot a bunch of crows at long ranges and had lots of cripples and some that sailed around for a moment and then parachuted down real slow. I dont think it was because of small shot i think it is hard to center long shots and the edge of the pattern is what takes them. Just my thoughts i could be compleatly wrong. But it works for me. Although I sometimes use the that as an excuse for bad shooting LOL, as some days I couldnt hit a bull in the butt. (I whacked'em yesterday so it must be the shells)!

shaddart · Guru

Mike, I have shot quality 7 1/2s & 8s & still prefer the 6s, I'm hunting over a river at high passing birds & getting closer to them isn't an option. I'm not saying it's the right load for everyone but they've been working much better for me & I guess I'm willing to go the extra expense for the 6s. Troy I agree they do kick pretty good, but I've been shooting them thru a sxs that weighs about 8#sor an 870 with remys new recoil pad. The remy really absorbs the recoil well with that pad & the sxs is heavy enough that recoil isn't really noticable.

Hizzoner · Senior Member

I'm an avid trap,skeet and sporting clays shooter,well I had some reclaimed shot from 71/2 to 9's all mixed up together so I figured why not? Well I reload so I went with 1 3/8 oz.22 grains of red dot at 2 3/4 inch shells= SMOKES 'EM out to 45-50 yards!!!

watch em fall · Senior Member

I still think it is more who is holding the gun than what it is loaded with. I've killed pheasants with nitro 27's in 7.5's at 35-40 yards and they are a hell of a lot tougher than any crow. As far as choke it depends on the gun, some pattern much tighter or far more open than the choke. I bought a 1200 win. a while back 28 mod, but it pattern more like imp. mod or full. If I had to pick one shell and one choke it would be polishhammers reloads and mod. choke they pound them from tennis racket distance to 55 yards. I don't shoot much farther than that just my

.

Splash One · Senior Member

I'm gonna start using these cracker shells.. biggrin

Cracker Shells Link

-- Edited by Splash One on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 09:26:09 AM

Mainehunt · Guru

I use a Light/Modified choke tube and limit my shots to under 45 yards. I prefer #8's. But also use 7&1/2.

Kev

M12Shooter · Guru

Splash One wrote:

I'm gonna start using these cracker shells..

Cracker Shells Link

-- Edited by Splash One on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 09:26:09 AM

Game wardens and depredation officers up here on the Canadian Prairies use mountains of those to scare migratory waterfowl off grain fields in the fall. The shells were corrosive at one time and single shot H&R Toppers were used. Guns are basically thrown out at the end of the season as they were so badly corroded.

Ted

Skip · Guru

nhcs: We did touch on some of this last fall but it continues to be an important subject and your view point is of value. I would love to see another target, shot at 55 yards with the same 20 ga. load of 6's. A 40 yard shot is not quite to the threshold of what most would consider a long shot these days, so sticking to the topic here, would you consider a 55 yarder for comparison purposes. It might be informative.

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:

nhcs: We did touch on some of this last fall but it continues to be an important subject and your view point is of value. I would love to see another target, shot at 55 yards with the same 20 ga. load of 6's. A 40 yard shot is not quite to the threshold of what most would consider a long shot these days, so sticking to the topic here, would you consider a 55 yarder for comparison purposes. It might be informative.

skip

Skip as I think you know 40 yards has long been established as the range in which to determine choke via pellet count by % in a 30" circle. That is why my partner shoots 40 yard patterns, he tests his guns, especially new ones for their actual performance vs. advertised performance. That is what his range at home is set up for.

If a person is intending to go out and take 40+ yard shots with a 20ga, especially a 7/8 ounce 20ga they are IMO undergunned for the job. Long range shooting, 40+ yards is best left to the large bores, 12's and 10's.

As you know when it comes to long range shotgun performance size matters.

Any crow looking to be 65 yards away in my estimate is not a shot I would be taking with a 20 bore. Frankly 65 yards on any bird on the wing is a "stretch" or "poke" for just about any wingshooter. I've done it and sometimes do it successfully, but when I do decide to take a tall one my finger is usually on the trigger of one of my 10's.

Please recall that the reason my partner patterned a 20ga shooting 7/8 ouce of #6 at 40 yards is because a claim was made that there were too few pellets in that load at 40 yards to be effective. The photo has been graphically enhanced by another member here to show the full pattern at 40 yards. As you can see a crow would not have survived it.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 03:21:24 PM

Bob · Guru

40 yards was pretty much my limit with a 20 gauge but years ago the bulk of you're shots were under 30 yards.

On my first Mexican duck hunt I took a pair of 20 gauge 870's with me, I did ok with them but as NH has pointed out I was under gunned for the pass shooting beyond 40 yards. The next trip I took two 12 bores with me!

Bob A.

Mike27 · Senior Member

nhcs,
Skip's original 2 questions ended with "at long distances". You dropped in your 7/8 #6 from a 20 ga. Now your contradicting yourself saying IMO it's under gunned for the job.

Lets see how 10ga.cs 65 yd test comes out, although most are not shooting that far.

Mike

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Mike27 wrote:

nhcs,
Skip's original 2 questions ended with "at long distances". You dropped in your 7/8 #6 from a 20 ga. Now your contradicting yourself saying IMO it's under gunned for the job.
Lets see how 10ga.cs 65 yd test comes out, although most are not shooting that far.

Mike

Mike I am not being contradictory at all. Long distance is a subjective term. What is long distance for a .410? What is long distance for a 3.5" 10ga? Not the same for sure.

I happened to have the picture saved from last fall of a 7/8 ounce #6 from a full choke 20ga at 40 yards. There was a claim made last fall that there would not be enough #6 pellets in a 7/8 load to be effective at 40 yards. This shows there are and then some, most likely that gun and load is good to 45 yards. Thats a good poke for a 20ga. and yes I think if a shooter intends to engage game at ranges greater than 40 yards they are undergunned with a 20ga regardless of shot size.

Long range shooting has a few variables, first the cone of shot is getting wider with each yard dictating the use of a tight choke for maximum range. Smaller pellets lose velocity faster than heavier pellets. Penetration at extreme ranges, 60-65 yards requires a larger pellet. Long range shotgunning of game has always involved heavier loads of larger shot from a tight choke. Day in and day out a good tight choke and hard 6's from a 12 or 10 bore is going kill more crows outright with fewer crips at long range. I have seen it first hand and others have reported it here was well.

We can debate this all day long. A shooter has to shoot a lot of crows with both 6's, 7.5's and 8's to figure it out on their own. Good quality shells loaded with number 6 are hard to find and or more expensive for those who don't reload and that is why the use of number 6 is less popular. Those who use them know first hand of the improved performance at extended range.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 05:16:37 PM

Bob · Guru

For what it's worth I always thought you had to use premium ammo and components for the best results on crows. I shot the Remington 27 Yard Handicap Trap Load (Nitro Load) for many years on crows and it did a great job. Then one day about 5 years back I ran out of ammo on a hunt out of state where I was forced to buy some El Cheapo loads at Walmart. I bought all three, Remington, Winchester and Federal to try them out. I have been shooting the El Cheapo loads ever since in Federal and Remington in those four packs that Walmart sells. Do they pattern as well as the nitro load, no they don't, but I can still kill crows just as high and far with the El Cheapo loads as I ever did with the premium ammo.

Watch Em Fall had a good quote, he said he thinks it's more a matter of who is behind the shotgun than anything else.

If a guy really has confidence in his own ability he can just about pick up any smooth bore and shoot it well. Same holds true for shot size, it's what you have faith in that counts.

Bob A.

Mike27 · Senior Member

nhcs,

When nothing is specified, I think we can assume 12 ga. and 1 1/8 oz. loads, not the extremes you are mentioning. Long distance might be more subjective, but I am going with out passed 40 yds. You and your buddy are not the norm shooting 1 1/4 oz. 6 shot with a 10ga. at a crow.
Most of us shoot apples and you shoot oranges.

Mike

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Yes shooting a short 10 at crows is not the norm for sure, I enjoy being different (especially if I think different is better). I have shot many more crows with 1 1/8 ounce 6 out of a 12ga than with anything else. I would shoot trap all year long and simply substitute magnum #6 in the ol' MEC 650 for crow loads. They worked better than the 7.5's in that they produced fewer flying crips day in and day out.

Another variable in the equation is velocity. Long range shooting demands tight patterns. Lower the velocity of most rounds (lead shot) and pattern density increases, vice versa, crank up the speed and generally patterns open. When you decrease muzzle velocity a larger pellet will still deliver the needed kinectic energy at long range.

Hizzoner · Senior Member

For as long as I can remember before that Sh-t steel shot was required I reloaded 7 1/2's 1 1/4 with 35 grns. of blue dot 12ga. Model 12 30" full choke on SEA DUCKS and it ANNIHALATED THEM!!

"WITH STEEL THEY SQUEAL! BUT WITH LEAD THEY ARE DEAD!!"

Skip · Guru

nhcs: You have sure touched on an important fact. Velocity beyond a certain speed blows patterns. High velocity loads kill better...is a myth. My guess on that tipping point is somewhere around 1250 fps.. give or take 10-15 fps. It is no mistake that most all competition loads are that speed or less. This is true regardless of the size shot you use or the gauge. Shot patterns are speed sensitive... physics at work.

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:

nhcs: You have sure touched on an important fact. Velocity beyond a certain speed blows patterns. High velocity loads kill better...is a myth. My guess on that tipping point is somewhere around 1250 fps.. give or take 10-15 fps. It is no mistake that most all competition loads are that speed or less. This is true regardless of the size shot you use or the gauge. Shot patterns are speed sensitive... physics at work.

skip

I have seen a few shotgun ballistic tables from the early 1900's and most of the loads were 925 to 1000 fps at the muzzle. I shoot reloads that are kind to my old guns and with the 10 bores kind to their twist barrels (low pressure). My pet 10ga 1 1/4 load is at 1170 fps. My favorite 12ga trap load, 1 1/8 ounce, topped off with #6 for crows at 1145fps. Using the old doubles I have learned lighter loads at slower speeds are quite effective on clays and game and are much more comfortable to shoot.

Slower burning powders such as Green Dot (vs. Red Dot) in 12ga trap loads are used by many trapshooters for tighter patterns and less felt recoil. Better to give the shot a slower push down the barrel than a quick shove. Lower pressures are a factor in performance too.

There are many variables at work.

Mike27 wrote:

nhcs,

When nothing is specified, I think we can assume 12 ga. and 1 1/8 oz. loads, not the extremes you are mentioning. Long distance might be more subjective, but I am going with out passed 40 yds. You and your buddy are not the norm shooting 1 1/4 oz. 6 shot with a 10ga. at a crow.
Most of us shoot apples and you shoot oranges.
Mike

Oranges? More like pineapples

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 9th of March 2011 12:46:49 AM

watch em fall · Senior Member

NH is right with controlled loads, muzzle blast can ruin rifle accuracy so I can believe it will blow out or disrupt a shotguns pattern as well.

Mainehunt · Guru

Hizzoner wrote:

For as long as I can remember before that Sh-t steel shot was required I reloaded 7 1/2's 1 1/4 with 35 grns. of blue dot 12ga. Model 12 30" full choke on SEA DUCKS and it ANNIHALATED THEM!!

"WITH STEEL THEY SQUEAL! BUT WITH LEAD THEY ARE DEAD!!"

HIZ, I shot some ducks this season with Winchester low brass in STEEL #6. It knocked those ducks down. Many were the smaller Woodies and a double on Ring-necks, but a few were bigger like Mallards and Common Merganzers.

Kev
<><

Splash One · Senior Member

A couple more things to factor in are .. the quality of lead.. and higher pressures/speed deforming shot.. ruining your pattern.

M12Shooter · Guru

Mainehunt wrote:

Hizzoner wrote:

For as long as I can remember before that Sh-t steel shot was required I reloaded 7 1/2's 1 1/4 with 35 grns. of blue dot 12ga. Model 12 30" full choke on SEA DUCKS and it ANNIHALATED THEM!!

"WITH STEEL THEY SQUEAL! BUT WITH LEAD THEY ARE DEAD!!"

HIZ, I shot some ducks this season with Winchester low brass in STEEL #6. It knocked those ducks down. Many were the smaller Woodies and a double on Ring-necks, but a few were bigger like Mallards and Common Merganzers.

Kev
<><

Why yes! Absolutely fantastic that someone else has stumbled across the merrits or small steel shot!

I discovered the magic of steel 6's quite by accident years ago. Shot myself out of shells while being over run by legions of bluebills. I carried some steel 6's to dispatch the many cripples steel ammo ammo produces, so I fired some of these at decoying bills and to my suprise stone dead kills were the result!

This was decoy shooting and ranges were close, 20-30 yards give or take. Passed this info on to my pals and most of us shoot smaller shot at ducks these days. I never shoot anyting at ducks larger than steel 4's these days, and use 40 yards as a maximium range.

More fun, less lost birds but I still do miss so very badly lead fives and sixes

Ted

chip · Guru

Jon,,,,, I swear you are a psychic,,,,, I am Scottish and Irish with some Cherokee injun and guess what,,,,,I was at Bass Pro this weekend and had a couple hundred dollars worth of fishing stuff in my cart. I went thru the ammo dept, I found Remington gun club loads for 54 bucks a case biggrin

I thought I was stealing them back in October when I found them for 59.99 a case,,,,,,,needless to say I am sleeping on the couch these days,,,,,,Momma was not happy with the credit card bill, Dam good thing I wasn't in my truck or I would be looking for a divorce lawyer right now. I don't know if that was a local sale or a store wide sale, but that is the best buy on RGC loads I have ever run across..............Anyway Daddy and JR are fixed and ready for October 28th 2012 .

Hizzoner · Senior Member

Hi Maine,
If I am not mistaking years ago wasn't #6 steel= to #7 lead in size?? The other thing was to get used to steel at ranges because of velocity compared to lead! Hard habits of shooting lead for 45 years!For some the inability to lead a bird was supplemented by steel shot velocity at close range resulting in more hits for the inexperienced shooter! I still wish I had lead #71/2's on waterfowl- speed+density= Sea Duck Stew!!

"KEEP DUST'N 'EM"