As far as what criteria goes into successful long range shooting I would say practice and experience would be #1. The more birds you get put in front of you during the season the better you will get. There is a great feeling of accomplishment when you can consistantly kill "the high ones" and by that I mean beyond 50 yards. 50 yards and beyond is a long long way for a shotgun but with enough oppurtunity one can get pretty good if he gets enough of that type of wing shooting.
What chokes and shot size?
I prefer 7 1/2's and 8's with a 3 dram trap load. The choke depends on the barrel itself. Improved modified to extra full are the ticket for 50 yards and beyond if thats you're thing. I have two Beretta Urikas in 12 gauge that pattern like full choke guns with a modified choke in both of them.
Lead?
Everyone has differen't reflexes and timing so no one lead fits all in this respect. The only way to become good is to shoot as much as you can afford to shoot. It takes some people longer than others to build in that muscle memory but once there you don't even have to think about the shot, you just know when it feels right.
Bob A.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I didn't want to hijack Skip's thread on shot size in regards to long range shooting but I think this relates to the topic.
What criteria goes into consistent success at long range?
How far do you lead them?
Shot and choke size?
How do you judge distance? I know I have a comfort zone determined by the size of the bird in the "window".
Crossing shots out in front, hovering overhead or high tailing it outta there after a loud bang.
-- Edited by ba24 on Sunday 6th of March 2011 03:12:04 PM
Success at long range is a combination of lots of practice with shotgun, and a shotgun choked and shooting a load that is the most effective combination at long range.
How far do you lead them, seriously as much as is needed for each shot. No two birds are going to be traveling the same speed and no two shots will be at the same angle. Each shot must be evaluated in a split second by the gunner, lead applied and trigger pulled.
Long range = more choke regardless of target. Shot pellets are shedding velocity as they travel. Larger heavier pellets have more inertia and arrive at a longer range traveling faster and hitting with more energy than a smaller lighter pellet. Over the years I have come to conclude target size shot will be less effective than number 6 shot at the extreme end of a shotguns effective range,which I believe is the 50 to 60 yard mark.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 6th of March 2011 06:05:19 PM
I honestly don't know how much I lead, everytime I think about lead I miss, the only thing I think of is head on the stock & keep the gun moving, Hey I'm 61 I'm lucky I can think of 2 things at once !
ba21: You can hijack my thread all you want.. no problem.. wherever there is discussion about this subject is a positive thing. Plus, you touched on the essence of what I was trying to get at: "what criteria goes into consistent success at long range" with emphasis on the word "consistent".
I would like to separate shooter skill...as a variable here. We probably have as many skill levels as we do members and we each have to factor that in...in determining our own criteria for longer shots. BUT, regardless of skill levels, there is a combination of barrel length, shot size, choke, gauge, shell component quality that will work best.. or better for 98% of us for shots to 45-60 yards! That is what I am after.
We get so many questions both on the bulletin board and private messages and emails.. about WHAT choke,shell,etc.. is best for crows. I am seeing IF there is a consensus on what that answer might be. For sure, the expert shotgunner..and the complete novice will not agree with what is best for us mainstream crow hunters that make up about 90% of all members, etc.
On this rather complex subject ( but very interesting ) there are facts about performance and opinions and conjecture some of which are myths. I would like to separate the two as much as possible.
If you are going to throw barrel length into the equation than you have separate action type. A 30" barrel on a break action gun is about the same overall length as a 26" on an autoloader. My barrel length preference depends on action type.
Best is also subjective, best in all cases would be a crow centered in the pattern of 2 1/4 ounces from a 10ga mag hands down regardless of range.
Best is the biggest gauge and shot load the shooter is comfortable with.
A 20ga is indeed adquate for most situations, a 12ga is better.
7.5's and 8's are adequate in normal range 40yds. 6's are better from muzzle to longest target in my experience.
Shells should be of the best quality when range extends beyond 30 yards IMO.
Choke should be appropriate for the range the shooter engages the target. A double gun has the advantage of instant choice of two chokes. An autoloader and pump have the advantage of higher rate of fire. Use of the tightest choke possible, full, should be used for shots extending beyond 50yds.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 8th of March 2011 05:33:29 PM
I have been hunting waterfowl for almost 16 years and I have noticed when i first got into crow hunting it takes less lead in (MOST) cases for me to bring down a crow at 50 yards than to bring down a wood duck high tailin it up the river at 30 yards. Im having to adjust my shooting style a bit. The sight picture when pulling the trigger on a crow is something Im not used to at long ranges. I have more trouble bringing down a crow at 40 yards than I do a duck at 40 yards even though the lead on the duck seems to be three time as much. I have shot many many times over the amount of waterfowl than crows so Im shure in a couple of more seasons I will be roll'in the crows at long range just like woodies on the river. Steel shot probobly has something to do with this too.
Shotgunning is not only an art it is a science and all things involved are a ballancing act. Load weight, shot size, choke, lead, and ability to keep good form and not make basic mistakes. Lifting the head, stopping the swing, things of that nature. I mean its worse than golf! Bob is right the more targets we see and shoot at the better we will become, because our brain sees the target and has seen it before and remembers what the site picture looked like the last time we pulled the trigger and the bird fell. Or at least close to it. Thats the reason not stopping the swing is so important, its a two edged sword. If you stop your swing to begin with you shoot behind. If you stop it after you pull the trigger your second shot is jinxed and you will have to play catch up. I had rather miss behind on the first shot because I use the swing through method and if I keep on swinging I will get him on the second shot (most of the time). I hardly ever shoot three times at the same bird unless its at a species I have never killed before. I have never killed a pintail and if I incounter one I will empty my gun if nessesary LOL.
I think everybody shoots a little different and what works for me may not work for some. Also the swing through method I use isnt the churchill method used by some brits. It doesnt work for me unless the target is very close. I do see a distance between the bird and the end of my barrel. The churchill method is a meathod of swinging through where you dont see lead. It works like this. Start behind the bird, you see butt belly beak bang. You see the beak you pull the trigger. The lead is (supposed to be in the speed of the gun swing) I think its a bunch of B.S. for long range shooting. I have also shot with guys that claim they use this method and non of them are good long range shooters. I mean how can you reproduce a shot where you never saw the sight picture to begin with? This doesnt work for me and if you have a hard time with longer shots and you use this method try something else it may help. Thats my experience your millage may vairy.
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A SUPER 90 and a crow in range, life is good. A good sandwich and bag of M&Ms doesnt hurt either.
You propose an interesting topic and conversation. Reading and learning about hunting ballistics is always valuable.
I have trouble, however, believing that there is a "true" answer to your question with the specifications you required. That is probably the same reason the topic gets talked about so much on here but yet never comes to a complete conclusion.
It is my belief that the bulk of the loads manufactured today (even the cheap ones) are capable of consistently taking crows 45-60 yards. Folks can talk about 6's VS 7 1/2's all day long but bottom line they will both kill or at least break a wing at the longer distances. You leaned on the word "consistent" and wanted to avoid the shooter skill as a factor...IMO you cannot separate the two.
If there were an answer to the "ultimate" long distance crow load I would still take an experienced shooter with 7/8th ounce loads of #2's over an average shooter with the proverbial ultimate long distance crow load.
Big Honkers: For sure there is not a "true" answer to this issue. But there is one that comes close.. all thing being considered and "close" works for shotgunners! The discussion so far is super. Hope it continues.
Big Honkers: For sure there is not a "true" answer to this issue. But there is one that comes close.. all thing being considered and "close" works for shotgunners! The discussion so far is super. Hope it continues.
skip
Skip,
I love the debate! I believe there is a load that is at least superior to all others when checked against all the knowns that we can come up with. Getting answers is easy. The hard part is know the RIGHT questions. Here are a couple of questions I would like answered. At what distances are 6's, 7 1/2's, and 8's, no longer able to penetrate a crow to the point of inflecting a deadly blow if launched at 1200 fps? That distance would then determine what the choke constriction should be for maximum range. A choke that puts more pellets in the target than needed for a clean kill at that distance is too tight and one that puts too few in it is too open. So there is a perfect choke to be had. There is a perfect load to be had if all you are interested in is long range shotgunning.
I will not be surprised if the ultimate load is a "squared load" in 10 or 12 gauge, 6's launched around 1200 fps, however, the 7 1/2s may surprise me based on pellet count. If I understand it correctly, a squared load in 12 gauge is equal to 1 1/8 oz of shot and gives the best patterns out of most guns.
So the question is, How far will 6 through 8 shot carry enough energy to kill a crow?
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
600 f.p.s. is the number with enough speed to kill. Even lower depending on the game, but that is about the magic number.
At 1200 f.p.s. and 40 yards,
8's are at 660 fps 7 1/2's are at 675 fps
Now depending on the age of the reference book or web site, you could get different answers here. I remember writing this a year ago and didn't find the info on 6's, but I'm sure it's out there.
600 f.p.s. is the number with enough speed to kill. Even lower depending on the game, but that is about the magic number.
At 1200 f.p.s. and 40 yards,
8's are at 660 fps 7 1/2's are at 675 fps
Now depending on the age of the reference book or web site, you could get different answers here. I remember writing this a year ago and didn't find the info on 6's, but I'm sure it's out there.
Mike
Mike,
I have cleanly killed crows at 50 yards with 7 1/2's and Bob says he can kill them at 60 with 7 1/2's or 8's. He probably shoots much better that I so I tend to believe he is stating what he has done. At 60 yards 8's are traveling at 540 fps and 7 1/2's are 555.
So now we need to see how far 6's are from the muzzel when they drop below 540 fps. I realize the 6's will penatrate deeper at the same velocity than the 7 1/2 or 8's but at least it will be a starting point.
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
8, I've taken birds at 60 also. I was just trying to give some info on your question. I seen over the years from a pellet gun on a squirrel to steel on a goose, 600 fps is a number they use as a minimum guide. Bob will tell you that shock kills. So maybe if enough pellets hit at 400 fps, that will put down a crow. I don't have the answer.
Just read you're post and "The Churchill Method" caught my eye. The way you described it it sounds like the "Pull through or Snap Shooting Method" used in the USA. I use this method on any type of broadside shot, the only thing I do differently on close shots 15 to 20 yards is I slap the trigger the instant I'm on the bird (dead center) and the lag time between my brain sending the signal to my trigger finger gives me a built in lead. I have my muzzle moving much faster than the target so there is much less chance of stopping my swing. The lag time might be as little as 1,000th of a second but if you're timing is right there should be no problem.
On high and far shots (45 yards and beyond) I have to switch gears and become much more deliberate where there is a consious lead. Later in the season you get more high type shots so you either learn to shoot them or just watch them go on bye.
Bob A.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
You damn right shock kills! On most far shots beyond 50 yards all the 7 1/2's and 8's do is break the skin on the crows, and the shock takes it from there. It flat shuts them down in mid air, do I stone all of them, nope I don't, but I do kill the majority of them on impact at that yardage. Any of you who have seen "The Art of Crow Hunting" will know what I'm talking about as there were many high birds shot in that dvd, all with 7 1/2's and 8's, some even with 9's. The closer shots were killed with 9's up to 30 yards.
Bob A.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
Think of shooting a clay bird, sometimes you chip it at 30-40 yards. Then on the next 30-40 yard shot it is dust, I still say the operator of the weapon is the key factor on any shot from 5-60 yards. If someone is missing at 25, they probably will miss at 40 Also. I've seen people who rarely miss and some who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a banjo, I fall somewhere in between(lol).
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whatever i'm doing i'm thinking about crow hunting
8, I've taken birds at 60 also. I was just trying to give some info on your question. I seen over the years from a pellet gun on a squirrel to steel on a goose, 600 fps is a number they use as a minimum guide. Bob will tell you that shock kills. So maybe if enough pellets hit at 400 fps, that will put down a crow. I don't have the answer.
Mike
Hey Mike,
Wasn't disputing what you wrote. I too have seen that number. I know that number can be pushed a little is all I was saying as the ballisticians that come up with those numbers will error on the safe side. I have also seen where it takes 4 hits to vitals to cleanly kill a game bird.
Anyway, here is a little number I got my wife (the math major) to come up with. Those in favor of 6's may want to sit down for this.
A full choke is equal to a 40" pattern at 40 yards and a 60" circle at 60 yards. A 1 1/8 oz load of 6's has approxamatly 251 pellets. At 60 yards through a FULL choke there would be 1 pellet in every 11.26 square inch section of the circle IF the pellets were perfectly distrubited. That is one pellet on ever corner of a grid pattern that measured 3.355" squared. Is that enough to kill a crow cleanly and consistantly??? I think a crow has a fighting chance with those odds.
Comments??
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
8, I've taken birds at 60 also. I was just trying to give some info on your question. I seen over the years from a pellet gun on a squirrel to steel on a goose, 600 fps is a number they use as a minimum guide. Bob will tell you that shock kills. So maybe if enough pellets hit at 400 fps, that will put down a crow. I don't have the answer.
Mike
Hey Mike,
Wasn't disputing what you wrote. I too have seen that number. I know that number can be pushed a little is all I was saying as the ballisticians that come up with those numbers will error on the safe side. I have also seen where it takes 4 hits to vitals to cleanly kill a game bird.
Anyway, here is a little number I got my wife (the math major) to come up with. Those in favor of 6's may want to sit down for this.
A full choke is equal to a 40" pattern at 40 yards and a 60" circle at 60 yards. A 1 1/8 oz load of 6's has approxamatly 251 pellets. At 60 yards through a FULL choke there would be 1 pellet in every 11.26 square inch section of the circle IF the pellets were perfectly distrubited. That is one pellet on ever corner of a grid pattern that measured 3.355" squared. Is that enough to kill a crow cleanly and consistantly??? I think a crow has a fighting chance with those odds.
Comments??
You might want to sit down for this, that is not how choke is measured or pattern effectiveness determined. You have to shoot the pattern plate or paper to know what any gun and load is capable of.
You are starting from a false premise. A full choke is not always a 40" circle at 40 yards, nor 60" at 60 yds. What matters is the "core" of the pattern. A full choke is any gun that can put a minimum of 70% of the pellets in the load withing a 30" circle at 40 yards. Some guns do better. My partner has an Ithaca NID short 10 that will shoot 100% patterns at 40 yards (30 inch circle). I have a 12ga Parker that is shooting in the low 80 percentile at 40 yards. Obviously the the tighter the pattern at 40 yards the better it will perform at 50 and even 60.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 9th of March 2011 01:24:15 AM
Technically speaking is what I was referring to. Most charts I have seen place a full choke at 70% in a 30" circle at 40 yards which puts the outside diameter of the pattern at 40". It is just a reference point. You are correct the core density of the pattern may be tighter that the perimeters, But that would mean that you need to be more precise with the 6's than the 7 1/2's. I don't know about you, but precise at 60 yards is not what I am looking for. I don't hit well enough to need precise. I need a more open and effective pattern at that distance. I am not disputing the better killing power of 6's at longer ranges.
I fully believe that you can kill crows farther with 6's than with 7 1/2's IF you can get them into the bird. At what point does the pattern of 6's open up to the point it is no longer effective? Patterns are not a repeatable perfect science. With all the variables, I don't think the 6's will consistently kill birds any farther than the 7 1/2's based on the density of the patterns at 60 yards given the same 1 1/8 oz load in a 12 ga. I have no experience with the 10 ga.
With a 12 ga, more shot that 1 1/8 oz does nothing but produce more flyer's and a few more pellets in the core of the pattern, but not enough core density increase to make up for the additional recoil. Increase the velocity and again you increase the flyer's. Add velocity and heaver payload and you get lots more flyer's as now you are crushing even more pellets. If 7 1/2's will kill birds out to 60 yards, what do you really gain from the 6's?? I cant hit a bird at 60 so for me it is a mute point anyway.
So then, does the question become... Can you hit a bird at a distance far enough to NEED 6's???
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
I can see by all these post's I should definitely test fire some loads, I've been reloading most of my crow rounds , fairly basic 1 1/8 oz 7 1/2's bumped the powder up just a little to ensure if I shot one of the auto's it would kick out clean. Most of the time though I've been hunting with my old reliable 870 Wingmaster 28" fixed Modified. I'm having a blast and it is amazing how far out these will just roll'em!!
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If you aim for nothing you'll hit it every time!!!
I think engaging and hitting a target with a shotgun at 60 yards, be it clay or feathers is indeed precision shooting. Yes I can on occasion hit a bird at 60 yards, like most my odds are better when they are closer. Again, over the course of many years, 1000's of crows shot all seemingly doable ranges and angles target loads produced more flying crips, feathers in the air, bird not gaining altitude, legs hanging, actually hearing the shot hit them with no effect. Switching to number 6 shot in both 12ga and 20ga noticably reduced the number of flying crips I experienced day in and day out.
I've been watching these threads on shot size and distance for awhile. A long time ago I came to the conclusion that shooter skill is the most important factor at all distances. And after 30 years of shooing I still don't have great long range skill; Like most I'm much better inside of 45 yards or so. And heck I'd prefer half of that!
If you guys have a chance sometime, look up George Digweed and watch some of the video of him shooting. He is generally considered one of the best sporting clays shooting in the world. He can consistently break clay birds at amazing distances----well beyond 60 yards and in all kinds of presentations. And he can do it with ordinary target shells like many use for crow hunting that would seem to not have enough pellets/pattern or energy left for the job. But he has proven that it is possible over and over for years on end.
I'm not saying live birds and clay targets are the same because that whole conversation always stirs up enough trouble by itself. However, I think there is alot of similarities between what you see in the skills of Digweed and what other good long range bird shooters like Bob accomplish.
And what nhcrowshooter wrote is probably at the heart:
"What matters is the "core" of the pattern"-----that combined with skill has become the most quoted explanation of what is going on when Digweed is observed.
Modern analysis of patterns suggests that all patterns start with a hot core; some hotter than others. That hot core doesn't move out in a nice even pattern but degrades and sends pellets to the perimeter. The perimeter and core together might make a real nice pattern on paper with a given choke at a certain distance such as 30-35 yards. Heck, anyone that has done much patterning at those distances can give you all kinds of nice looking paper from a variety of chokes and shells. And that also explains why most of us do our best at these typical shotgun ranges---there is the most room for error. We know that things look good at normal shotgun range but take a look at 45+ yards. The usuable pattern starts shrinking in size; however, a core and some fringe still normally remains. There is a reason that good trap shooters say the effective pattern for handicap and/or bunker is more like a couple of feet versus the old mythical 30" patterns that people draw circles around on paper.
Then take a look at a 60 yard pattern. There are tons of holes all around that birds can escape thru as the fringe/perimeter has usually become un-useable but there will still usually be a core; it just isn't huge anymore and might only be 12-13 inches. It seems that the great shooters effectively put that tiny core on the target. And even at long range, if that core has enough pellets they have the possibility of getting the job done as they have combined energy. Where most of us fail, is by missing completly or hitting on the fringes of the pattern with a pellet or two and not having enough combined energy with any pellet size to get the job done. You get away with fringe hits up close but it doesn't cut it at long range.
8fishermen: I think what you are saying here is: with larger shot ( 5's & 6's) you run out of a killing pattern before you run out of killing energy. Is this correct? If so, I think you have touched on the primary variable in this discussion.
8fishermen: I think what you are saying here is: with larger shot ( 5's & 6's) you run out of a killing pattern before you run out of killing energy. Is this correct? If so, I think you have touched on the primary variable in this discussion.
Skip
Skip,
That is exactly what I was trying to say. Big Black Birds explained it much better and in a much more thought out way. He nailed the WHY portion with his explanation of the "hot core".
Larger shot hits harder down range. PERIOD. But if you cant get it into their wheelhouse, is it any better than several smaller shot and the shock factor Bob mentioned??? I don't know. I seem to kill more with 7 1/2 shot at longer ranges and a mod choke that with 6's and a tighter choke. This is most likely due to my shooting skills or should I say the lack there of.
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
8fishermen: I think what you are saying here is: with larger shot ( 5's & 6's) you run out of a killing pattern before you run out of killing energy. Is this correct? If so, I think you have touched on the primary variable in this discussion.
Skip
and conversely smaller shot can run out of energy before running out of pattern. Small shot at extended range may kill a bird if the head is the pattern, if only the body is in the pattern chances increase for a flying crip.
8fishermen: I think what you are saying here is: with larger shot ( 5's & 6's) you run out of a killing pattern before you run out of killing energy. Is this correct? If so, I think you have touched on the primary variable in this discussion.
Skip
and conversely smaller shot can run out of energy before running out of pattern. Small shot at extended range may kill a bird if the head is the pattern, if only the body is in the pattern chances increase for a flying crip.
So if 6's run out of pattern core density and 7 1/2's run out of energy... WHICH ONE IS BETTER???... Oooo, Oooo, (Insert frantic hand raiseing here) I know! I know!
THE ONE I AM MOST CONFIDENT IN!! 7 1/2's!!
I am just messin' ya. I am beginning to think there might not be one best answer. Instead there may be two sub par answers and you have to choose the lesser of the two evils.
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
What I am most confident in is the result of both observations and testing. Shot for shot crows hit with loads of number 6 produce more dead in the air fold ups. Hit's with 7.5's produce more struggling lively yet falling birds and more struggling and still flying away wounded birds.
Running out of energy vs. running out of pattern: which one is best/worst? Excellent question! I submit that at the range smaller shot run out of killing energy is at a range most of us never shoot or uncomfortable with that range. Some have said small shot killing range is 40 yards and less or wound too many birds beyond that range. I do not believe either to be true. Just my opinion.
You've heard me say this before, but live pigeon shooters...use 7 1/2's..and kill a much tougher bird than a crow at ranges near 60 yards. That is fact. But it is also fact, those guys are using the best shell they can find.. to make those shots. So in a matter closely related to making those long shots, plug in this ammo comparison of the Rem. Nitro series shell...a the Rem. Gun Club loads. Picked Rem. because I know these facts, but I bet WW and Federal,etc numbers are much the same
The Nitro has 6% antimony while the Gun Club product has 2%.
The 6% Antimony shot is used only in STS/Nitro products..the shot is "Double Tabled" to make sure only the roundest pellets are loaded.
The Nitro has a Fig8 wad in it...while the Gun Club has a Game Load wad.. the Fig8 has a better cushion section for better patterns..less shot deformation.
The Nitro and the Gun Club are the same exact Hull... the Nitro is skived deeper to allow for better reloading. The plastic make-up is the same for both as well as dimensions.
The Nitro has all brass components..head and primer.. the Gun Club has a steel head ( Nizn) and steel components in the primer.
Clearly, the first 3 facts about Remington's competition loads are supremely important in making long shots.
So, odds are, if a shooter is using low antimony shot, inferior wad, less round shot, those long shots will be made less frequently. I no longer reload shot shells, so can anyone tell me IF the larger shot come with 6% antimony with care given to round shot?
Chilled shot has about 2% and Magnum has 5% to 6% antimony. You can buy Magnum in larger shot in 25# bags. You would hope that the companies selling high brass $15 a box shells, would be using the roundest, hardest shot.
We can only buy what is available Skip, I use quality components in my hunting loads, for the 10ga it's Fed hulls, WW209 primers, Remington SP10 wads with BPI 16ga filler wad, and 1 1/4 ounce of "magnum" #6 shot made by Lawrence. I do the same with my 12ga target loads only I use Green Dot powder, either AA white or Rem Fig8 wads depending on hull, AA or STS, and Lawrence "magnum" 7.5. I have found my older fixed choke 1100 trap guns capable of delivering mid 80% patterns at 40 yards. I do not feel I am giving up anything to a AA Super Handicap or Rem Nitro Load. I have found my hunting guns capable of 80%+ patterns.
According to the Lawrence shot website their magnum shot is advertised to be 4-6% antimony. We could spring for something even better, we could buy nickle plated lead shot. However there is line between economy and performance. I stop at using NP shot because of it's cost. Others stop shorter than that by buying economy 4 packs.
As far as shooting "flyers" the rules preclude the use of shot larger than #7.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 03:04:55 PM
A reloader has a charge bar capable of holding a predetermined amount of shot. Not by weight, but by fullness. Antimony weighs less than lead. Lets say an 1 1/8 oz load bar. So, if you load with magnum versus chilled shot , a possible 4% difference in antimony. Are you getting less than an 1 1/8 oz. of shot. How are the loaders set up.
I believe MEC used to sell "Magnum" charge bars for just this reason. It is always a good idea to weigh both powder and shot drops with a scale, especially powder. Often powder charges are lighter than advertised. The problem is most easily overcome by use of an adjustable bar. I have one that adjusts shot weight/volume but uses MEC powder bushings.
The adjustable bars that allow for adjustment of both powder and shot are a PITA.
Additonally patterns are generally calculated using known number of pellets per ounce. The lighter magnum shot would still have the same number of pellets when loaded by volume. Effectiveness by pattern density would not be affected and would be improved by the harder shot in spite of the slightly less charge weight.
PS. If you weigh magnum 7.5's from a standard MEC 1 1/8 bar you'll find you are closer to 1 1/16 ounce.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 04:01:20 PM
Was this about leads? All I can say is what BOB says PRACTICE,PRACTICE! SKEET,TRAP,SPORTING CLAYS!! After you get plenty under your belt and that could take years then every thing comes natural and that means even knowing you missed just as you pulled the trigger!! GOOD LUCK!!
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"LOAD and RELOAD" "NEVER FORGET THOSE THAT TOOK A HIT FOR YOU EVEN WHEN THEY DID'T KNOW YOU" U.S. VETERANS!!
What I am most confident in is the result of both observations and testing. Shot for shot crows hit with loads of number 6 produce more dead in the air fold ups. Hit's with 7.5's produce more struggling lively yet falling birds and more struggling and still flying away wounded birds.
I wish I had taken better notes on this subject. I didn't start taking notes until late in the season. I did somewhat start keeping up with shell to kill ratio towards the end also. My observation was with a mod choke and 7 1/2's I killed more crow at 50+ yards than with an Imp Mod and 6's. I was able to hit more birds with the smaller shot and therefore I killed more with the 7 1/2's. I hit less birds with the 6's but I did kill most of those that I hit. Still, from my perspective I kill MORE with the smaller shot and a more open pattern at all distances.
Think of it like golf or base ball. The larger the "sweet spot" on a club or a bat, the easier for a novice to hit the ball well. The more open choke and smaller shot producing a larger core pattern helps me put the bird in the sweet spot more often. Do I kill all of them? Not even close. But, I do kill more with this setup than with a tight choke and 6's that has a smaller sweet spot.
I will leave the blades and rifles (80+ %) to you pros and I will stick to my cavity backs and open patterns. After I started keeping up with my kill to shell ratio, I was shooting around 48-52% so I need all the help I can get.
You mentioned your observations and testing, I don't suppose you have any written data on that? That would be very interesting info to add to the debate. As I said, all I have is my perspective as my notes and recollection are not detailed, BUT, I will assure you this, next year they will be.
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
8Fisherman, are simply trusting in what the choke is stamped or did you pattern your gun to know that your 7.5 load was patterning between 60-70% at 40 yards and your number 6 load was shooting no less than 65%? Generally as shot size increases so does pattern density from the same barrel/choke. If you killed most hit but hit less targets that is not indicative of the load being inferior.
If your kill ratio for shots fired on crows is 48-52% you are admitted to the pro ranks. I believe that is exceptionally good shooting on crows, congrats.
Last year was the first year that I kept any kind of note I could retrieve for future use about # shells fired, gauge used etc. It's a much easier task using a spreadsheet than paper and pencil. Like a lot of you I was shooting crows before PC's were popular.
The answer to you question is both. I am somewhat trusting what is on the stamp and I have also patterned enough shells to know that my benelli M1 with the Imp Mod choke and the Mod choke shoot a little tighter than stamped with Quality trap loads. With the cheap stuff, it is a little more open than stamped. I would say the cheap stuff on average = one choke size difference. All 6's I have shot have been cheap hot loads (1 oz at 1350 fps), Heavy hot loads (1 1/4 at 1330), and REALLY HOT loads!!!(1 1/8 at 1450) They all fill up the paper well at closer distances. I admittedly have not patterned them a 50 - 60 yards.
I did just shoot some 7 1/2's at 40 - 50 - and 60. With mod and full chokes. These were cheapo 1 1/8 oz 3 dram 4 pack federal loads. At 50 a mod choke will make multiple strikes in a crow sized target. At 60 with the full choke, it is the same. At 50 with the mod choke, a dove could not have come though it unscathed.
Here is a little piece of info that is on a different note but may be worthy of entry. When hunting squirrel with a shotgun, I get cleaner kills with Nitro 7 1/2 that with ANY 6's I have shot with the exception of Golden Pheasant 6's in the 1 3/8 oz load. There is just not enough pellets hitting the squirrel to make clean kills. I normally shoot 6's though as I don't want all the 7 1/2 shot in the meat. I KNOW this info to be true as I have killed MANY with a scatter gun. I uses 6's knowing that more than likely I will have to make follow up shots. Follow up shot's with the nitro's are all but nonexistent. Squirrels are MUCH harder to kill that a crow.
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
