World Champion Sporting Clays shooter George Digweed on a crow hunt.
Two days ago he set the world record for long range clay pigeon shooting at 130 yards. Starting at 10 yards and backing up 10 yards (5 yards as he got further back), he is allowed two shots at 1 clay pigeon. He breaks most with the first shot and set the new world record at 130 yards.
He shoots Kent Gamebore Black Gold Pigeon Extreme 1 1/4 ounce #5 for the record shot and said that is his favorite load for the crows, many of which were 65-70 yard shots. (like 10gacrowshooter and I have told you guys long range shotgunning requires larger pellets for energy and core density . Maybe now you devotees of small shot will figure out your handicapped at long range if a world champion shooter gives you a tip and shows ya how it's done ).
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 17th of March 2012 11:07:40 PM
Gotta leave some for you guys!!! I am gearing up for more geese,on next Thursday, Next Saturday I have a crow hot spot that has produced big numbers on the third weekend of Oct for three years straight!! It is also the first day of yote season,so I will be busy!!!! Keep smashin them bandits!!!
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The third weekend of the month is usually the start of the big fall migration through here. I am taking the week of the 17th off. We'll try to leave some for ya!
I guess George wanted to end on a high note. He could have backed up again or maybe he saw the only a couple of pellets were connecting at that range. Still quite a shot. I'll bet he can read the 20 /10 line on an eye chart.
What size shot was he using for crows and up to the 100 yd line.
I guess George wanted to end on a high note. He could have backed up again or maybe he saw the only a couple of pellets were connecting at that range. Still quite a shot. I'll bet he can read the 20 /10 line on an eye chart.
What size shot was he using for crows and up to the 100 yd line.
Don't just say 6's if you don't know.
Mike
i think he said 1 1/4 oz of 5's but like 6's too ooh, that is not wright. lol
I think thats the name of the game. Call'em in close for sure kill !
The name of the game is killing crows.
Not every crow is going to commit, the person shooting 2nd if taking turns often has a longer shot, 2nd and 3rd shots after the first is fired is often at an exiting bird that is further away than the first shot.
The point here is George is a World Champion shooter and holds the record for the longest clay pigeon shot (dilberately and consistently) at ranges more than twice what is considered the extreme range of a shotgun. He is a crow shooter and in the video demonstrates a number of long range shots including a double with the first bird at 70 and the other "much further". He does not use 8's or 7.5's for either. He uses Kent Gamebore Black Gold Extreme Pigeon loads. They come in one shot size only, 5's. He could not do what he did on either clays or crows which is consistent extreme long range hits, with target size shot.8 and 7.5 won't keep a tight enough pattern or have the energy to kill or break the bird. The argument small shot is needed for pattern density at long range is false. I can't shoot like George but I do know what works best on the longest shots I am capable of, 6's and full choke, preferably out my 10ga.
I would agree that the bigger shot size work better. We reload our own and have experimented with alot of different size shot. We recently switched to #5 from #4. Really like the 5's for knockdown power as well as range.
Before steel shot was required for waterfowl. I would reload my duck shells. My favorite load was Winchester 3in magnum high brass hulls. Would load them with 4 drams of powder and 1 6/8 ounces of #5's. I had a Mossburg with a 32 in vented rib steel shot barrell (yes before steel shot). That gun would hammer some long range ducks. I was always the caller in the blind and I would let the other guys fire their guns empty before I broke ole ATT out to reach out and touch someone. Many times I would drop birds on all 3 of my shots at long ranges. #5's are awesome size shot. I still shoot them for turkeys. Of course, those reloads would hammer your shoulder big time.
I love to shoot long shots and really spanked some a couple weeks ago that should have been safe. And that was with just field loads. Might need to break my reloading equipment out again. LOL
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IMO #5 lead shot was the best all around shot size for big ducks, ie: late mallards, blacks, canvas, redheads, etc. No problem dropping small geese, snows and the smaller races of canadas with 5's as well.
With this said I must admit I started my crow shooting career many years ago shooting heavy duck loads on crows. We were told they were tough and hard to kill. This valuable bit of information was gleaned from duck hunters that would shoot the odd crow if one happened to venture by. These were the same guys that claimed one could not kill a goose with anything smaller than BB's.
During the past 35 or so years I went from this to less choke, less gun, and smaller shot, although I still shoot a full at times. Just my two bits and I certainly don't want to start a range war!
Ted
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The two statements by nhcrowshooter.."the argument that small shot are needed for pattern density is false (in the context used here ) and 7.5 and 8's will not kill clay birds or crows at extreme range...are both most certainly true simply because at "extreme range" small shot are ineffective due to energy loss. Inside the effective range of small shot, there is nothing better. The "context" to keep in mind here is..we are talking...extreme range..Digweed range...shots of 60-70-80-130 yards extreme! I say that because the expression "long range" is a relative phrase. Long range for 8's is 50+ yards, long range for 6's is further. I do not think anyone disputes this. Long range for Digweed is 130 yards. Long range for most of us is 50 yards.
This subject of small vs. larger shot has been on the board for as long as I can remember and clearly a board favorite. I also suspect it has helped many tweak their loads and chokes and set-ups they use all to good advantage. Here are some...just some of the things to keep in mind when putting together your approach to gun/choke/shot/set-up for crows or any target:
None of us are George Digweed. Patterns never remain the same size. It is always getting larger...and less dense regardless of shot size.
Larger shot and tighter chokes are not better if it does not fit your shooting situation. Larger shot and tighter chokes are better if it does fit your shooting situation.
There is no escaping these two facts: the tighter the choke you use the more difficult short shots become....and the more open the choke, the less likely you will connect on longer shots. Shotgun shooting at clay or live targets is a series of compromises.
If your shots at crows are 50 yards and less (most of us) most of us willl kill more crows with an open choke (IC or Mod) with 7.5 and 8's than they will with full choke and 5 and 6's. With Digweed, it makes no difference. If your goal...or your shooting conditions involve lots of long shots, then full chokes and 5 or 6's would be more effective. Bottom line here is.. it is hard for me to say anything is "false" until I understand a given shooting condition. One cannot mix data or omit data, as is often done on this subject, and draw firm conclusions. Doing so can mislead.
If you shoot mostly long shots and you are using an open choke and 8's..you will be miserable most of the day. Same is true if your shots are inside 30 yards and you are using full choke and larger shot unless you are in the Digweed class of shooters.
Look at what you actually shoot --- make firm decisions to fit your situation. Honestly, I do not believe there is an actual argument here. What most of us do comes down to personal preferences based on our own skill level and equipment used..flavored by our own experiences.
Skip
-- Edited by Skip on Saturday 29th of October 2011 09:44:25 PM
Skip, any load and choke will kill a close one. When range gets longer bigger shot and tighter choke is needed. Using an open choke and small shot for me is going out with one hand tied behind my back.
10gacrowshooter took a long time friend out last Friday morning. All the friend had was trap loads, 7.5's. He hit lots of crows that didn't come down or left with legs hanging. 10gacrowshooter gave him a handful of trap loads 1 1/8 ounce loaded with #6. The friend instantly started killing birds dead. The friend knows nothing of this debate. He does now know what works best for him. Maybe 10ga will come along and provide the details. Right now I am on generator power and he has no power due to the big storm. Could take awhile.
Skip, any load and choke will kill a close one. When range gets longer bigger shot and tighter choke is needed. Using an open choke and small shot for me is going out with one hand tied behind my back.
10gacrowshooter took a long time friend out last Friday morning. All the friend had was trap loads, 7.5's. He hit lots of crows that didn't come down or left with legs hanging. 10gacrowshooter gave him a handful of trap loads 1 1/8 ounce loaded with #6. The friend instantly started killing birds dead. The friend knows nothing of this debate. He does now know what works best for him. Maybe 10ga will come along and provide the details. Right now I am on generator power and he has no power due to the big storm. Could take awhile.
Skip, any load and choke will kill a close one.
What is left out of this statement is if one can hit it, right? Softball sized patterns at 25 yards can get a little dicey, except maybe for Digweed. This statement lacks balance. One size doesn't fit all for all. Arguing Big Shot, Small Shot without regard to range and choke is impossible. Shot larger than required at a given range just reduces pattern density and or limits pattern size, one or the other.
The question is all about range and keeping as big a killing pattern with proper density and energy. What is "long range"? There is no one setup for all ranges. Set up to shoot 60 yards and one has handicapped himself at 25 yards. Set up for 25 yards and 60 yards becomes a problem. The key is to know the range and shooting the range one is set up for. Most will honestly find they shoot crows at 20 to 45 yards and Skip's set up is PERFECT at those ranges. Many a crow has fallen to a skeet gun shooting #9 skeet loads. Crows are not a particularly tough bird to kill. A 60 yard set up, big shot and tight choke, will create a small pattern affecting ones ability to hit the close target; it's that simple. Digweed doesn't have a problem with that but many of us would. There is very little the common man can take from what a Digweed uses, and apply it.
The question is all about range and keeping as big a killing pattern with proper density and energy. What is "long range"? There is no one setup for all ranges. Set up to shoot 60 yards and one has handicapped himself at 25 yards. Set up for 25 yards and 60 yards becomes a problem. The key is to know the range and shooting the range one is set up for. Most will honestly find they shoot crows at 20 to 45 yards and Skip's set up is PERFECT at those ranges. Many a crow has fallen to a skeet gun shooting #9 skeet loads. Crows are not a particularly tough bird to kill. A 60 yard set up, big shot and tight choke, will create a small pattern affecting ones ability to hit the close target; it's that simple. Digweed doesn't have a problem with that but many of us would. There is very little the common man can take from what a Digweed uses, and apply it.
Dr. Davis, where you have erred is your assumption of pattern size at 25 yards. It's a bit bigger than a softball. A typical full choke pattern at 25 yards is 21 inches in diameter, an Improved Cylinder 32 inches. However remember that means it is only 5 1/2 inches bigger in either direction. If the shooter is off by just 5.5 inches in lead with an IC choke it's still a miss.
On game birds a full choke hit at 25 yards is totally destructive and there will not be much of a breast left to eat. Most of us don't eat crows so a destructive close range hit is of no consequence.
A setup for 50 - 60 yard crow shooting remains very effective at 25 yards. The 5.5" margin of error pattern diameter on a close bird is too slight to make a huge difference in whether the bird gets hit. I find the close birds are generally the easiest shots regardless of choke.
Nobody else shoots like George Digweed but his forte is the long and tall ones. A crow gun should be set up to give the crow hunter the widest filed of fire, a 60 yard dome around the blind. The skill needed to hit the close ones with a tight choke comes from practice before the season.
A crow gun should be set up to give the crow hunter the widest filed of fire, a 60 yard dome around the blind. The skill needed to hit the close ones with a tight choke comes from practice before the season.
Your assumption of a pattern may be textbook correct but I assure you no one is breaking clay targets at 130 yards with a gun which produces a 21" pattern at 25 yards? Mixing the data points randomly is making me sea sick. Your opinion of how a gun should be set up ignores skill level and to suggest the shooter learns to shoot an improper set up does nothing for the argument. We could just as well say to learn to hunt so you don’t need to take 60 yard shots.
I maintain the average guy with average skills will kill more crows with a 25 to 45 yard set up. Good quality Trap loads and Imp Cyl or Mod choke. Big shot, tight chokes, and long range are low percentage shots for anyone.
Dr. Davis, my assumption of pattern size is textbook. I have no idea what GD's Perazzi is shooting for a pattern but I can tell you what is does is possible by the hot core of the larger shot. Most of us are shooting textbook patterns, assuming we know what our guns pattern and not trust what the barrel or choke tube says.
I have not mixed my data points randomly, nice dodge btw. I merely pointed out Imp Cyl choke offers a rather slim margin of error, 5.5" on average in any direction over a full choke at 25 yards. Hardly bigger enough to compensate for a lesser skill. Full choke and large shot is not an improper setup, it is just as deadly and more so at longer range. Longer shots 40yd plus are going to be presented to every shooter. Birds fail to commit, birds exiting after the first shot etc.
Good quality trap loads are just that, trap loads. Larger shot works better as range extends.
The average guy is better off to practice as much as possible during the off season. To suggest that an IC choke will compensate for lesser ability is to say equipment is more important than skill.
Dr. Davis, my assumption of pattern size is textbook. I have no idea what GD's Perazzi is shooting for a pattern but I can tell you what is does is possible by the hot core of the larger shot. Most of us are shooting textbook patterns, assuming we know what our guns pattern and not trust what the barrel or choke tube says.
I have not mixed my data points randomly, nice dodge btw. I merely pointed out Imp Cyl choke offers a rather slim margin of error, 5.5" on average in any direction over a full choke at 25 yards. Hardly bigger enough to compensate for a lesser skill. Full choke and large shot is not an improper setup, it is just as deadly and more so at longer range. Longer shots 40yd plus are going to be presented to every shooter. Birds fail to commit, birds exiting after the first shot etc.
Good quality trap loads are just that, trap loads. Larger shot works better as range extends.
The average guy is better off to practice as much as possible during the off season. To suggest that an IC choke will compensate for lesser ability is to say equipment is more important than skill.
You are mixing data points, again. You can not compare pattern size through a given choke between large shot and small shot. Large modern shot patterns tighter than small shot. Major difference between #5s in a full choke and #7-1/2s or #8s in a IC choke; MAJOR! To set up for the random long shot at the detriment of the routine range shooting is silly. Take a full choke and #5s ; go to a skeet range and shoot a round. Then take a IC choke and #8s and shoot a round. Tell me there is no difference. The argument is baseless unless one limits their shooting to long range only. In a mix of ranges short to long one needs to favor the range most shot are taken, 25-45 yards. I strongly suggest you put your set-up on paper to actually see what you are shooting.
You are mixing data points, again. You can not compare pattern size through a given choke between large shot and small shot. Large modern shot patterns tighter than small shot. Major difference between #5s in a full choke and #7-1/2s or #8s in a IC choke; MAJOR! To set up for the random long shot at the detriment of the routine range shooting is silly. Take a full choke and #5s ; go to a skeet range and shoot a round. Then take a IC choke and #8s and shoot a round. Tell me there is no difference. The argument is baseless unless one limits their shooting to long range only. In a mix of ranges short to long one needs to favor the range most shot are taken, 25-45 yards. I strongly suggest you put your set-up on paper to actually see what you are shooting.
If you had been around here last year you will see many a pattern test was referenced and photographed. Last year the argument was 6's would not have enough pattern density to be effective at long range.
A crow hit by a load of 5 or 6 at close range with a full choke is just as dead, a crow hit by small shot and an open choke at long range not so much.
To set up with a gun with limited to no ability at longer range is really silly. Taking a 45 yard shot with IC and small shot, even sillier.
BTW. What is "modern" shot? Last I knew chilled lead shot and magnum lead shot (more antimony) have been around a long time. Is there something new?
Again, skill gained through practice trumps trying to make up for it by other means.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 31st of October 2011 07:11:16 PM
You are mixing data points, again. You can not compare pattern size through a given choke between large shot and small shot. Large modern shot patterns tighter than small shot. Major difference between #5s in a full choke and #7-1/2s or #8s in a IC choke; MAJOR! To set up for the random long shot at the detriment of the routine range shooting is silly. Take a full choke and #5s ; go to a skeet range and shoot a round. Then take a IC choke and #8s and shoot a round. Tell me there is no difference. The argument is baseless unless one limits their shooting to long range only. In a mix of ranges short to long one needs to favor the range most shot are taken, 25-45 yards. I strongly suggest you put your set-up on paper to actually see what you are shooting.
If you had been around here last year you will see many a pattern test was referenced and photographed. Last year the argument was 6's would not have enough pattern density to be effective at long range.
A crow hit by a load of 5 or 6 at close range with a full choke is just as dead, a crow hit by small shot and an open choke at long range not so much.
To set up with a gun with limited to no ability at longer range is really silly. Taking a 45 yard shot with IC and small shot, even sillier.
BTW. What is "modern" shot? Last I knew chilled lead shot and magnum lead shot (more antimony) have been around a long time. Is there something new?
Again, skill gained through practice trumps trying to make up for it by other means.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 31st of October 2011 07:11:16 PM
...so let me get this straight. You are saying 1-1/8th oz of hard #7-1/2s, a quality trap load, will not kill a crow as well as the same payload of #5s at 50 yards? You keep fall back to "long range"; how far is "long range".
1 1/8 of hard 7.5's loaded to 1200 fps + or - 50 fps is great load but not so much for a crow at 35 yards and beyond, If you like watching more birds fly off with legs hanging, joking with your buddies about the puffs of feathers and the bird is still going, if enjoy a bird screaming and fighting all the way down, if you like chasing lots of walking wounded it's a great choice. If you want a significant higher number of dead in the air folds take that 1 1/8 oz load and substitute #6 or #5 shot. Sure 7.5's work, but if you reload and substitute some hard #6 for those 7.5's you'll find improved killing performance. Trouble is most fellas don't reload and Wally World and Dicks Sporting Goods don't sell a shell with quality equal to AA's and STS in #6. So they buy what is available at the best price and then tell themselves and everybody else "man these Nitro 27's are pure death" and they never tried it's equavilent loaded with bigger shot.
Still wondering what "modern" shot is.
PS. and no way will 7.5's kill as well as #5 at 50 yards. If it were possible to tie a 100 crows on a string and shoot 50 with each I'd wager big money more birds will still be alive albiet wounded by the 7.5's. That would be a suckers bet for sure.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 31st of October 2011 08:11:41 PM
1 1/8 of hard 7.5's loaded to 1200 fps + or - 50 fps is great load but not so much for a crow at 35 yards and beyond, If you like watching more birds fly off with legs hanging, joking with your buddies about the puffs of feathers and the bird is still going, if enjoy a bird screaming and fighting all the way down, if you like chasing lots of walking wounded it's a great choice.
Well sir, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about so there is no sense in continuing this discussion. A pigeon is harder to kill stone dead than any crow. Every, not most but every, Live Pigeon shooter in the world disagrees with these comments and there is no more money put in play in any other shotgun sport. You have what must be considered a unique opinion without anything to back it up.
Oh, modern lead shot is round, hard, above 5% antimony and may even be 6%. They don't make it in #5s or #6s that I know of.
WOW! What good stuff here... instructive to many at least, but I would like to address some statements made as "fact" in this discussion.
Remington Nitro series of ammo contains 6% antimony. The "hard shot" or magnum shot (for reloads) contains less..perhaps 4%. The Rem. gun club stuff, by comparison, contains only 2% hence their lower price and less than ideal effectiveness at longer shots. Same is true for other non-competition loads. Antimony makes the lead hard...deforms less.. carries further in a tighter pattern than shot with less antimony. Plus, Nitro shot ( and I suspect other mfg. of "competition loads") double rolls the shot, ( to eliminate any shot that is not perfectly round) round shot travels truer..stays in the pattern longer ), Nitro loads have the very fine Fig8 Target wad vs. a Game Load wad for Game Club loads. The Fig8 wad has a better cushion section for better patterns..less shot deformation. It is clearly a superior shell..and costs more.
I mention these facts to address the statement that "7.5's is a great load but not so much for crows at 35 yards and beyond." To my knowledge there are no competition loads filled with 5 or 6's. Dr. Davis mentioned ALL live pigeons shooters use 7 1/2 and kill pigeons dead at 60 yards. He should know.
High handicapTrap shooters shooting from the 27 yard line are taking some of their shots at 45- 50 yards..and they use 7 1/2 - 8's and are hitting the trailing edge of a clay bird at that distance...and smoking them. Crows are not hard to kill. Pigeons are.
I cannot address why nhcrowshooter's friend only wounded lots of crows at 35 yards but killed them when switching to 6's. There are too many variables to consider. I would bet, however, he was not using quality loads (perhaps some of the 2% stuff ) and when he switched to nhcs handloaded #6's.. he got a better shell... perhaps 4% antimony..better wad..etc. Differences like that DO make a difference and those differences show up clearly at ranges beyond 35 yards.
NHcrowshooter is evidently a fine shot. Evidently using a tight choke and large shot is not a handicap to him for shots up close and produces fine long range performance which his situation requires. Great. My hat is off to him. But for us main stream, average crow shooters our kill zone is almost certainly under 50 yards, probably under 45 yards. Though it shows the range of effective weapons/loads us crow shooters us, nhcs love of his 10 gauge, full choked, 1 1/4 oz of #6's.. is not mainstream. To state that small shot do not pattern well, will not kill a crow at these distances dead is not borne out by the facts.
-- Edited by Skip on Monday 31st of October 2011 10:56:17 PM
Well sir, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about so there is no sense in continuing this discussion. A pigeon is harder to kill stone dead than any crow. Every, not most but every, Live Pigeon shooter in the world disagrees with these comments and there is no more money put in play in any other shotgun sport. You have what must be considered a unique opinion without anything to back it up.
Oh, modern lead shot is round, hard, above 5% antimony and may even be 6%. They don't make it in #5s or #6s that I know of.
I don't have a clue? Who mentioned the difficulty of killing a pigeon vs. a crow? Now you speak for every pigeon shooter on what is best for crows? Wow you are really networked!
There are rules that govern live pigeon shooting, the vary from state to state and from US to Int'l. Shells are RESTRICTED to nothing more than 12ga, 3 1/4 dram, 1 1/4 ounce, nothing larger than 7.5's, some places allow #7. These restrictions prohibit the use of larger shot thus adding more challenge to the game. The rules are not there to ensure the BEST load possible is being used.
Nothing to back it up except about 40 years of shooting about everything there as at them. I am sharing my opinion based on quite a bit of experience. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else, I am telling how it works for me and people I hunt with and I recommend you and others give it a try and decide for yourself. It is those who haven't used larger shot and tighter chokes on a lot birds if ever who seem to have the strongest opinion that way they shoot is the best there is.
BTW Digweed is a professional and sponsored shooter. He can use any shell he wants. He is the master of long range crow shooting and clay pigeons from what he see. His choice is shot size #5, not 7.5, maybe he knows something, ya think?
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 12:01:40 AM
WOW! What good stuff here... instructive to many at least, but I would like to address some statements made as "fact" in this discussion.
Remington Nitro series of ammo contains 6% antimony. The "hard shot" or magnum shot (for reloads) contains less..perhaps 4%. The Rem. gun club stuff, by comparison, contains only 2% hence their lower price and less than ideal effectiveness at longer shots. Same is true for other non-competition loads. Antimony makes the lead hard...deforms less.. carries further in a tighter pattern than shot with less antimony. Plus, Nitro shot ( and I suspect other mfg. of "competition loads") double rolls the shot, ( to eliminate any shot that is not perfectly round) round shot travels truer..stays in the pattern longer ), Nitro loads have the very fine Fig8 Target wad vs. a Game Load wad for Game Club loads. The Fig8 wad has a better cushion section for better patterns..less shot deformation. It is clearly a superior shell..and costs more.
I mention these facts to address the statement that "7.5's is a great load but not so much for crows at 35 yards and beyond." To my knowledge there are no competition loads filled with 5 or 6's. Dr. Davis mentioned ALL live pigeons shooters use 7 1/2 and kill pigeons dead at 60 yards. He should know.
High handicapTrap shooters shooting from the 27 yard line are taking some of their shots at 45- 50 yards..and they use 7 1/2 - 8's and are hitting the trailing edge of a clay bird at that distance...and smoking them. Crows are not hard to kill. Pigeons are.
I cannot address why nhcrowshooter's friend only wounded lots of crows at 35 yards but killed them when switching to 6's. There are too many variables to consider. I would bet, however, he was not using quality loads (perhaps some of the 2% stuff ) and when he switched to nhcs handloaded #6's.. he got a better shell... perhaps 4% antimony..better wad..etc. Differences like that DO make a difference and those differences show up clearly at ranges beyond 35 yards.
NHcrowshooter is evidently a fine shot. Evidently using a tight choke and large shot is not a handicap to him for shots up close and produces fine long range performance which his situation requires. Great. My hat is off to him. But for us main stream, average crow shooters our kill zone is almost certainly under 50 yards, probably under 45 yards. Though it shows the range of effective weapons/loads us crow shooters us, nhcs love of his 10 gauge, full choked, 1 1/4 oz of #6's.. is not mainstream. To state that small shot do not pattern well, will not kill a crow at these distances dead is not borne out by the facts.
Skip the problem with small shot at long range is it's low velocity due to it's smaller mass. Once velocity sheds significantly the pattern starts to open fast. That's why larger shot patterns tighter at long range. That is why Digweed switched to #5 when he took shots at clays at 90yds to 130yds.
As far as our friend shooting different shot sizes and finding the 6's more effective. All three of us buy our reloading supplies at the same place, all three of us shoot clays together. The difference in the loads was the substitution of magnum #6 for magnum 7.5. His experience mirrored mine many years ago and that of 10gacrowshooter as well.
Shooting antique 2 7/8" 10ga doubles is unique. Shooting American classic 12ga doubles is unique too. That is part of the gun collecting, reloading, hunting circle we travel in. They are fun, you should try an old 10 bore sometime.
BTW I use the Rem Fig8, Federal S3 and AA White for my 1 1/8 ounce 6 loads. In the 10ga I use Remington SP10 (with 16ga filler wad) and sometimes the old Versalite 10ga wad when I can find them. Back in the day my AA reloads using Green Dot and Lawrence magnum 7.5 would pattern in the mid 80%, better than factor AA's including the Silver Bullets as we used to call them (Super Handicap).
BTW those super duper 7.5's don't always kill a pigeon dead at 60 yards. That's why there is one winner and many losers. Not all the losers missed. The 10ga was banned from flyers and trap shooting for a reason, shot size was restricted too, both done to make the game harder.
Yes promotional loads are usually not so hot. Some are better than others. About the worst are those black hull Remington game loads. The Federal target load are not bad and work well at 16yd trap.
Speaking of trapshooting I have done a bit of that too. Clay pigeons at long range are often torn apart by the centrifigal force of the spin of the target after being cracked by the pellets. Often times shooter will shoot a bit high and dust a target. Not all those dusted birds were missed. Walk the field where the targets fall, you will find birds with 2, 3 even 4 pellet holes in them that remain in tact. The pellets didn't impart enough energy. Shoot some trap with some #4, #5 and #6. Stand on the 16 yard line you can crush them consistently a foot off the ground before then land. (if you can figure out both lead and how much to shoot under them). The big shot is devastating at those ranges.
These are the facts as I know them, at all ranges with tight choke #6 kills more birds outright than the smaller sizes. That is my experience and that of others I hunt with and watch shoot.
Thank you Skip, some days I am a fine shot, other days not so much. They happen on game and clays. They happen to everyone. When I shot ATA trap every weekend I believed in biorythems. Some days it was a struggle to break a decent score. On the days it all came together going straight was seemingly effortless.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 12:14:09 AM
Here's my observation regarding all this large shot vs. small shot that I have seen on this site for as long as I can remember. Seems like 90% or higher (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... or should I say a majority of people responding to this topic prefer 7.5/8 shot to get the job done. To me, that is proof enough.
If two people (large shot) say the hot dogs best and 100 people say the hamburgers are best..... You can bet your sweet _ _ _ that I'm trying the hamburgers.
Now, let's not get into an argument of hot dogs & hamburgers (literally)...haha
I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's like religion, politics and favorite sports teams....you aren't going to change anyone's opinion.
Here's my observation regarding all this large shot vs. small shot that I have seen on this site for as long as I can remember. Seems like 90% or higher (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... or should I say a majority of people responding to this topic prefer 7.5/8 shot to get the job done. To me, that is proof enough.
If two people (large shot) say the hot dogs best and 100 people say the hamburgers are best..... You can bet your sweet _ _ _ that I'm trying the hamburgers.
Now, let's not get into an argument of hot dogs & hamburgers (literally)...haha
I've said it before and I'll say it again...it's like religion, politics and favorite sports teams....you aren't going to change anyone's opinion.
Hammer
That's because 90% of the people go to Walmart or some other box store and buy what is most readily available at the lowest price. Until people have shot a lot of trap loads filled with magnum 6 shot in place of 7.5's and 8 they only have an uninformed opinion. My point is to say I have seen first hand the improved performance and that others should try it for themselves.
Using your theory a lot people said Obama was the best. How's that working for you?
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 4th of November 2011 01:25:28 PM
IMO #5 lead shot was the best all around shot size for big ducks, ie: late mallards, blacks, canvas, redheads, etc. No problem dropping small geese, snows and the smaller races of canadas with 5's as well.
With this said I must admit I started my crow shooting career many years ago shooting heavy duck loads on crows. We were told they were tough and hard to kill. This valuable bit of information was gleaned from duck hunters that would shoot the odd crow if one happened to venture by. These were the same guys that claimed one could not kill a goose with anything smaller than BB's.
During the past 35 or so years I went from this to less choke, less gun, and smaller shot, although I still shoot a full at times. Just my two bits and I certainly don't want to start a range war!
Ted
I just learned this again this past saturday while seaduck hunting. Most guys push to use BB's or 1's with full chokes. "Those seaducks are big and hard to kill......."
I shot mine with a Light/Mod choke tube and an ounce and a quarter of number 4's.
I also have been killing Mallards with 2 and 3/4" shells with #7 steel shot.
Kev
-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 4th of November 2011 01:36:26 PM
Bob A. & Skip have shot over 200,000 crows between the two of them and we all know what kind of shot they use. Again...proof enough.
"Using your theory a lot people said Obama was the best. How's that working for you?"
Well, "a lot" in the shot size debate is like I said before...over 90%. There's something to be said about a percentage that high. I wouldn't say they are uninformed. I'd say they are being successful and are sticking with what works.
Don't get me wrong..one of these days I'll load up some 6 shot and give it a whirl. For now, I reload a good 1 1/8th oz load of magnum shot (7.5's) at 1230-1250fps and it seems to be working well.
I may have told you this before...but I tried some Shur Shot heavy dove in 6 shot and was very disappointed. Maybe some good reloads would produce better results.
Our (my hunting partner and I) situation is probably different than yours. We like to use decoys and try to get them as close as possilbe (inside 30 yards). 7.5 (or 8's) work fantastic for this. Now I could see the advantage of a #6 in the magazine on the ones getting away at 50+. BUT...then again..I'm running Light Mod almost exclusively and I don't think the 6's would pattern well at 50+ yards out of my LM choke.
Like I said, I break down one of these days and buy a bag of 6 shot and let you know how it works out.
Digweed is a professional shooter, world champion, long range record holder and long range crow shooter extraordinaire, proof enough
Sure they are being successful but that is like being satisfied with a 4 cylinder engine in a truck thinking it's working fine pulling your trailer but never have driven a V6 or V8.
I am not a fan of Remmy Shur Shots either, reloads are better I am sure.
I like 25 and 30 yard shots too, but not every crow is going to close the deal or it is a fleeing 2nd and 3rd shot target.
You gotta pattern the 6's out of that choke, I bet you would be surprised.
You should try a bag of 6, reloading is fun, experimenting is fun too.
IMO #5 lead shot was the best all around shot size for big ducks, ie: late mallards, blacks, canvas, redheads, etc. No problem dropping small geese, snows and the smaller races of canadas with 5's as well.
With this said I must admit I started my crow shooting career many years ago shooting heavy duck loads on crows. We were told they were tough and hard to kill. This valuable bit of information was gleaned from duck hunters that would shoot the odd crow if one happened to venture by. These were the same guys that claimed one could not kill a goose with anything smaller than BB's.
During the past 35 or so years I went from this to less choke, less gun, and smaller shot, although I still shoot a full at times. Just my two bits and I certainly don't want to start a range war!
Ted
I just learned this again this past saturday while seaduck hunting. Most guys push to use BB's or 1's with full chokes. "Those seaducks are big and hard to kill......."
I shot mine with a Light/Mod choke tube and an ounce and a quarter of number 4's.
I also have been killing Mallards with 2 and 3/4" shells with #7 steel shot.
Kev
-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 4th of November 2011 01:36:26 PM
Yes Sir, the old antage where pattern kills not power still stands true. We do well on ducks with #6 steel shot...over deeks 30 yards or inside which IM0 is a good range as be it ducks, crows or whatever, getting them in close as possible is the ticket.
Big divers such as canvas are very hard to kill and I have never shot a sea duck but would think they would be as tough or better. I would think a pattern of big shot at the edge of effective range to be a very effective sea duck crippler.
Steel shot requires one to change his/her shooting style but good things are being done with the newer generation heavier the lead rounds...if one can handle the price.
Ted
__________________
Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
IMO #5 lead shot was the best all around shot size for big ducks, ie: late mallards, blacks, canvas, redheads, etc. No problem dropping small geese, snows and the smaller races of canadas with 5's as well.
With this said I must admit I started my crow shooting career many years ago shooting heavy duck loads on crows. We were told they were tough and hard to kill. This valuable bit of information was gleaned from duck hunters that would shoot the odd crow if one happened to venture by. These were the same guys that claimed one could not kill a goose with anything smaller than BB's.
During the past 35 or so years I went from this to less choke, less gun, and smaller shot, although I still shoot a full at times. Just my two bits and I certainly don't want to start a range war!
Ted
I just learned this again this past saturday while seaduck hunting. Most guys push to use BB's or 1's with full chokes. "Those seaducks are big and hard to kill......."
I shot mine with a Light/Mod choke tube and an ounce and a quarter of number 4's.
I also have been killing Mallards with 2 and 3/4" shells with #7 steel shot.
Kev
-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 4th of November 2011 01:36:26 PM
Yes Sir, the old antage where pattern kills not power still stands true. We do well on ducks with #6 steel shot...over deeks 30 yards or inside which IM0 is a good range as be it ducks, crows or whatever, getting them in close as possible is the ticket.
Big divers such as canvas are very hard to kill and I have never shot a sea duck but would think they would be as tough or better. I would think a pattern of big shot at the edge of effective range to be a very effective sea duck crippler.
Steel shot requires one to change his/her shooting style but good things are being done with the newer generation heavier the lead rounds...if one can handle the price.
Ted
Absolutely agree. #6's are flat out killing Mallard sized ducks with one shot. And those 36's are coming out of low brass 2&3/4" cartridges too.
I am not a seaduck expert, I just started hunting them. But many of them are a big ducks. The Common Eider is the largest migrating duck in the Northern Hemispere.
Besides hearing how tough they are and that you have to use huge shot and tight chokes. All I have heard is the old saying about "the way to cook and eat seaducks are; boild them with a rock for 6-8 hours. After that amount of time, throw away the duck and eat the rock." I cleaned two Eiders last Saturday and they were delicious. They weren't tough either. I will say that they had a stronger taste than mallards or Wood ducks, but everyone in my house loved it.
Back when it was a big deal to kill a goose I carried Goose Parties in a 90 day season, hunting 70 plus days. Mostly over water rigs by choice but some field pits. All I shot was Federal 2-3/4", 1-1/4oz 3-1/4 dram lead #5s out of a 1100 skeet gun. Those geese fell stone dead from all reasonable ranges. As a guide I was always shooting at tail feathers. That load is death to a duck or goose!
Back when it was a big deal to kill a goose I carried Goose Parties in a 90 day season, hunting 70 plus days. Mostly over water rigs by choice but some field pits. All I shot was Federal 2-3/4", 1-1/4oz 3-1/4 dram lead #5s out of a 1100 skeet gun. Those geese fell stone dead from all reasonable ranges. As a guide I was always shooting at tail feathers. That load is death to a duck or goose!
Dr. Davis,
Because of the theory that the shot can more easily travel between the feathers of a bird flying away from you,instead of having to break its way through the feathers..... in your opinion, do you think it's easier to kill a bird while it's flying away from you?
We found many clean stone dead kills were from head and neck hits. Many, many birds came back from the pickers without a single hole in them. Shooting them going away puts the vitals on the wrong end. IMHO, I would much rather have them coming at me or at least quartering to me. Going away is okay if they are directly over you but reaching out at water level or a little higher is a tough shot!
Skip, any load and choke will kill a close one. When range gets longer bigger shot and tighter choke is needed. Using an open choke and small shot for me is going out with one hand tied behind my back.
10gacrowshooter took a long time friend out last Friday morning. All the friend had was trap loads, 7.5's. He hit lots of crows that didn't come down or left with legs hanging. 10gacrowshooter gave him a handful of trap loads 1 1/8 ounce loaded with #6. The friend instantly started killing birds dead. The friend knows nothing of this debate. He does now know what works best for him. Maybe 10ga will come along and provide the details. Right now I am on generator power and he has no power due to the big storm. Could take awhile.
hi, my buddy said all he had was trap loads and i said all the other people "love them" well after a few flying crips and a lot of walking wounded he tryed some of my shells. this is only 3rd crow hunt but 1st with his 7 1/2's(last time he use my 1 oz 6's) and it didn't take him long to see the harder hits, with in 2 shots his mind was made up. balls of feathers and STONE DEAD BIRDS for the rest of the shoot, than he said "he would only load 6's from here on out" wow 3 rd time out he saw a BIG improvement on hit and kills. i even bought some 7's and they worked better than the small shot but i did not even finished loading the bag of them went back to 6's. now i can kill crow from 1yd to 70 yds(yes i have done it more than once, 10 ga )PS, i shoot all ga.'s 20,12,10 but one size shot 6. 10 ga CS
Heck guys go wit Number 3 shot steel shoot in Black Cloud & knock'em dead lol
I know your joking but no joke I have killed 20 times more crows with #3 kent fast steel waterfowl loads than any other shell! Its not what I choose for crow hunting but its whats in my gun when Im duck hunting and a crow makes the mistake of flying in shotgun range.
I shoot, you guessed it NITRO 27s at crows, in 7.5s. But thats only because I dont reload and no one makes a good #6 low brass load that is readily available without mail order or online shopping.
I shoot a M1 with a imp mod choke most of the time cause our crows always fly high. I have shot 1 1/4 oz #6 loads and like them better at longer ranges 45+ yards cause I had less cripples. But the recoil of 25 of those things in a benelli keeps me shooting the trap loads even if I gotta shoot'em twice. I need a gas gun. I have my eye on a 391 right now. If I can get my hands on that gun it will be #6s for me. I also like them better when its windy.
The argument has been ammo and choke. For me I had rather shoot a good quality load out of a tightish type choke because (most) of my shots are 35+ yards. But the occational close shot isnt handicapped that much. But if most of my shots were -35 yards I think I would be handicaped and would chose a mod or light mod. but long shots would be slightly handicaped. I had rather be handicaped on the shots I take the least of than shots I take the most of. Does that make sense? Thats just my 2 cents, not that that matters to anyone on here. All seem to have a locked down shell, choke, gun, and hunting style that works for them. If some one wants to boom #9s at them I dont care cause I dont have to shoot 9s I can make my own choice.
PS I also hunt pigeons and I have had (many pigeons) fly off after being shot in the ass with a resulting poof of feathers with 7.5s. I much prefure #6s for pigeons as they are a tougher bird than a crow. Thats my humble opinion on the correct shot size for pigeons but this time it just happent to be fact. LOL
-- Edited by Troy Seal on Saturday 10th of December 2011 02:16:48 PM
__________________
A SUPER 90 and a crow in range, life is good. A good sandwich and bag of M&Ms doesnt hurt either.
I cannot help chuckling when i see a bunch of dead crows no matter who shoots them...that photo caught me by surprise a bit...Bob...I had to study it to understand just what was i looking at? Then it hit me! One had to have had an open area out to their front right?
On another note I love the big versus small....last year I got them in so close I missed.....that bothered me more than the usual misses at whatever normal respective range is....and it bothers me more when I saw them approaching from a mile away!
I watched that Digweed video several times....the English style of shooting crows is a bit different-they don't call in example. Digweed is always fun to watch in any case...and his techniques or English techniques will work the same over here.....the big difference is he has way more crows than I have access too...and no calling techniques!
I was on a crow safari last week and spotted this old run down out building. I stepped off 100 yards and fired at a five gallon bucket with 7 1/2's, 8's and 4's. I even held a foot high on the bucket and never had one piece of shot hit it at that distance. Not only did the shot not hit the 5 gallon bucket, not one piece of shot even hit the side of the shed I used as a backstop and to check for fliers. Perhaps I should have held higher because I suspect the shot fell short of the target at that distance. I used 3 dram trap loads and a 1 5/8th ounce 3 inch lead shell in # 4 shot.
. Maybe now you devotees of small shot will figure out your handicapped at long range if a world champion shooter gives you a tip and shows ya how it's done 
).
I am gearing up for more geese,on next Thursday, Next Saturday I have a crow hot spot that has produced big numbers on the third weekend of Oct for three years straight!! It is also the first day of yote season,so I will be busy!!!!
Keep smashin them bandits!!!
ooh, that is not wright. lol
not this again 
