Crow Busters Forum

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Another plus for reloading - harder shot

Mainehunt · Guru

I have great luck with the Winchester 2 and 3/4" in #7 STEEL for crows. Holds a pretty tight pattern even out of my Light MOD choke.

I always have some of those left over after duck season.

Kev

-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 13th of January 2012 12:10:58 PM

8fishermen · Guru

Mainehunt wrote:
I have great luck with the Winchester 2 and 3/4" in #7 STEEL for crows. Holds a pretty tight pattern even out of my Light MOD choke.

I always have some of those left over after duck season.

Kev

-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 13th of January 2012 12:10:58 PM

Those are quite hard I am sure. biggrin

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I am sure steel 7 holds a tight pattern, how's the retained energy beyond 50 yards? I'd be careful of putting that through your new Nitro Special.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 13th of January 2012 01:08:49 PM

Mainehunt · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
I am sure steel 7 holds a tight pattern, how's the retained energy beyond 50 yards? I'd be careful of putting that through your new Nitro Special.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 13th of January 2012 01:08:49 PM

I don't shoot beyond 40, they work well at that distance on small ducks and crows.

No steel shot will be fired out of my Nitro.

Kev

8fishermen · Guru

The way to gain hardness in lead is to replace part of the lead with arsenic, antimony, tin, and other metals that weigh less than lead but are harder. The harder the lead the lighter the pellet will be. There are trade offs with everything.

Most (hand raised here) can't put the more open patterns on a bird in the air. The amount of difference you will achieve with the "relatively" harder shot i suspect will not show up on most peoples kill logs. I know it doesn't on mine.

If I were to tell you just how open my crow load patterns you would LAUGH at me!

The greatest of the great clay target shooters may miss by inches. Most of us miss by feet.

BTW, You must be bored, you haven't stirred up the shot issue in a while. LOL I figured I would help you out and spar a while with you. biggrin biggrin

M12Shooter · Guru

From my standpoint, the secret to successful crow shooting is to get them in as close as possible. Inexpensive "promo" loads most often are all that are needed to kill crows cleanly. There are days however, when conditions are clear and windless or the birds are wary. Longer shots are then the norm and quality loads combined with a tighter choke constriction would be an asset.

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8 I believe it was Skip who claimed reloaders could not get shot as hard as premium factory target loads such as Rem Nitro 27's. Just thought it was interesting that is not the case and the reverse may be true. Quality loads are always an asset because not all crows killed will be close shots. No matter how good you are there are many times there are shootable birds after the first shot goes off.

Gadget Bob · Guru

Hi Kev,

I used some of the number 7 steel shot from Winchester last month when hunting with the one and only "Big Honkers". It worked well indeed. We were hunting some public land where non-toxic was required and I should have perhaps brought number 6 steel, but the 7's performed fine.

As Ted stated, we beleive in getting the crows in close, whenever possible, and that is a real key with my questionable marksmanship.

Hi Ted,

I am supposed to pickup my restored M12 Skeet, 20 gauge on Sunday morning at our big Dallas Market Hall Gun Show. I am excited to see it and will share some pics.

Regards,

Pat B · Senior Member

Just an FYI...
If you use the 600 fps rule of steel shot for penetration, and a starting velocity of 1550 fps.
Then #7 steel drops to 600 fps @ 37 yards and #6 steel drops to 600 fps @ 40 yards.
Penetration at that range (in ballistic gel) for #6 is .92 inch and for #7 is .79 inch.

Interesting to see those hardness valuves.....thanks nhcrowshooter !!

8fishermen · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
8 I believe it was Skip who claimed reloaders could not get shot as hard as premium factory target loads such as Rem Nitro 27's. Just thought it was interesting that is not the case and the reverse may be true. Quality loads are always an asset because not all crows killed will be close shots. No matter how good you are there are many times there are shootable birds after the first shot goes off.

I was just jerking your chain as I know this is one of your favorite topics.

I shoot near pure lead. It is range lead and I do not know what the BHN of it is but it is very soft. A 1 1/8 oz shot bar throws a charge weight of 1.2 oz. Mag shot usually throws a charge less than 1.125 oz. It is not perfectly round either. As a mater of fact it looks terrible. It is made with a set of 6 shot dippers. We crank it out between 1350 - 1400 fps depending which one of us is reloading it. We break ALL the rules that apply to "good tight patterns".

Through an extended Imp Mod choke the above shell patterns like a Imp Cyl choke at forty. In closer it preforms like it should but pattern degradation sets in around 33 yards and it opens up fast past that.

If I listened to all the pattern experts and stuff I read about what it takes to cleanly kill animals I would not shoot this stuff past 30 yards. My experience tells me something else. I can kill a crow as far with these as I can with anything else I have shot. I accidentally mixed up some reloads of factor 5 shot and these homemade 6's and when I realized it, I could not tell the difference in performance. I may have had a few more kills with the 5 but honestly I don't know. That day I gained full confidence in the homemade shot. I was bragging to my partner how far I could kill a crow with 5's when I realized I was shooting the homemade 6's. That particular day I had several 70 yard shots.

Yesterday, I hunted with these killing birds between 20' (I literately blew ones head completely off and yes it was flying when I did so) and 60 yards. I shot 6 boxes of shells and killed 94 birds. Could I have done better with mag shot at 1200 fps shooting a perfect Full choke pattern? No. I could not. The more open pattern covers my shooting errors better that the tight choke fills in voids at long range. I know this based on my sporting clay scores. I can take a Cyl choke and break 40 of 50 at the sporting clay range I shoot at. If I change the chokes at each station I don't break enough extra clays to be worth the hassle. Most shots I miss with the Cyl choke are the close rabbits and not the long birds.

All that said, I believe that pattern density is more important to trap shooters that crow hunters. Crows are larger than a clay target and don't carry shot well.

I await the fallout biggrin

Mike27 · Senior Member

8,

Last April, I had a topic, A Nice 36" Pattern. Check out the picture. I wanted to see what was out of the standard 30" circle.

Not to bad.

wingmaster · Senior Member

Well when i did reload that all i use Lawrence shot with high antimony 5shot to 8 shot If i stared reload i still use Lawrence

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I used Lawrence exclusively for years but there is a small local shop selling Eagle magnum brand shot for $37 a bag. About a month ago the closest Cabela's was selling Lawrence magnum for $62.99

About the best deal for having shot shipped to your location I can find at the moment is here:

http://www.gamaliel.com/shot/lawrence-brand-magnum-shot.asp

shaddart · Guru

NH, I used #6 eagle shot last year, no complaints, worked well in both 12 & 20 reloads. I shot 2 crows this fall while goose hunting, #2 blackcloud really flattens them, way to pricey for crows but I could'nt resist taking the shots.

8fishermen · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
I used Lawrence exclusively for years but there is a small local shop selling Eagle magnum brand shot for $37 a bag. About a month ago the closest Cabela's was selling Lawrence magnum for $62.99
About the best deal for having shot shipped to your location I can find at the moment is here:
http://www.gamaliel.com/shot/lawrence-brand-magnum-shot.asp

The homemade shot we shoot is free except for the sweat equity we put in it. Otherwise we would be buying commercial shot and paying the same prices as you listed. Free soft or pricey hard... Ill stick with the free as long as it is available. No EDD references please. LOL

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I went to Cabelas at Scarborough ME today and shot price of Lawrence magnum as $54.99. Long gone are the days I was able to by Peruvian "Star" shot, it was chilled lead but it was $8 a 25lb bag.

M12Shooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
I went to Cabelas at Scarborough ME today and shot price of Lawrence magnum as $54.99. Long gone are the days I was able to by Peruvian "Star" shot, it was chilled lead but it was $8 a 25lb bag.

Couple of us at the trap club bought a pallet of Eagle shot a few years ago. Got it in #7 1/2 shot at 28.00/bag. It's manufactured down in South America as well. Had it shipped to the border and picked it up there.

Ted

Mainehunt · Guru

8fishermen wrote:
I was just jerking your chain as I know this is one of your favorite topics.
I shoot near pure lead. It is range lead and I do not know what the BHN of it is but it is very soft. A 1 1/8 oz shot bar throws a charge weight of 1.2 oz. Mag shot usually throws a charge less than 1.125 oz. It is not perfectly round either. As a mater of fact it looks terrible. It is made with a set of 6 shot dippers. We crank it out between 1350 - 1400 fps depending which one of us is reloading it. We break ALL the rules that apply to "good tight patterns".
Through an extended Imp Mod choke the above shell patterns like a Imp Cyl choke at forty. In closer it preforms like it should but pattern degradation sets in around 33 yards and it opens up fast past that.
If I listened to all the pattern experts and stuff I read about what it takes to cleanly kill animals I would not shoot this stuff past 30 yards. My experience tells me something else. I can kill a crow as far with these as I can with anything else I have shot. I accidentally mixed up some reloads of factor 5 shot and these homemade 6's and when I realized it, I could not tell the difference in performance. I may have had a few more kills with the 5 but honestly I don't know. That day I gained full confidence in the homemade shot. I was bragging to my partner how far I could kill a crow with 5's when I realized I was shooting the homemade 6's. That particular day I had several 70 yard shots.
Yesterday, I hunted with these killing birds between 20' (I literately blew ones head completely off and yes it was flying when I did so) and 60 yards. I shot 6 boxes of shells and killed 94 birds. Could I have done better with mag shot at 1200 fps shooting a perfect Full choke pattern? No. I could not. The more open pattern covers my shooting errors better that the tight choke fills in voids at long range. I know this based on my sporting clay scores. I can take a Cyl choke and break 40 of 50 at the sporting clay range I shoot at. If I change the chokes at each station I don't break enough extra clays to be worth the hassle. Most shots I miss with the Cyl choke are the close rabbits and not the long birds.
All that said, I believe that pattern density is more important to trap shooters that crow hunters. Crows are larger than a clay target and don't carry shot well.
I await the fallout

Very interesting post 8fisherman. Thanks for sharing your information.

Kev

Skip · Guru

nhcs: It was certainly me... saying aftermarket lead did not contain 6% antimony and was probably not as hard as Nitro shot...and other premium competition loads. I am very glad that was wrong.. or is wrong today as I want to remember years ago, when I was shotshell reloading, Lawrence contained less than 6%. After reading 8fishermen using "range lead" to drop crows at 70 yards... this whole discussion might be mute! I think we all accept that hard shot does tend to pattern better than soft...but this is only important on long or longer shots where pattern density gains some importance. Hardness is a factor to be sure, but so is shot roundness... and Nitros are double table rolled for roundness.. not sure about Lawrence. Please do not get me wrong here.. I am not selling Nitros over Lawrence any other brand. The Rems are just one of the good shells out there today.. there are certainly others.

One more tidbit to consider: 6% antimony is generally considered the most you can go with for hardness as each bit ot antimony takes a bit of lead out..and less lead reduces the energy at impact as antimony weighs less than lead. If you check antimony content in magnum #9 shot, I think you will find 4% is the highest you will find and keep energy up. So, Lawrence at 100% relative hardness might indicate the presence of some other alloy.. metal.. etc.. that might reduce energy..might.. but we are way beyond splitting hairs here and the shot performs wonderfully for you.. and I am sure, others. Just shoot what you have confidence in.. and shoot where the bird is going.. not where it is. smile

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip, my point in posting those results was to show reloaders are not at a disadvantage in terms of component quality. I suspect such tests would show changes from one brand to another based on production lots. Yes we have all been told the more perfectly round shot the better the patterns. However, Hevi-Shot has kind of turned this theory on it's head as it has some of the most imperfect pellets yet patterns deadly tight.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 17th of January 2012 09:04:57 PM

Mike27 · Senior Member

The extra weight of the imperfect Hevi shot keeps them from sailing out of the pattern.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Mike27 wrote:
The extra weight of the imperfect Hevi shot keeps them from sailing out of the pattern.

If it was simply the heavier weight then steel shot should pattern terrible but it does not. My guess is hevi-shot must have more weight in one area and enough so that causes the pellets to position themselves weight forward and stay on their trajectory path with less spreading out, but this is just a guess.

Mike27 · Senior Member

Don't forget the added speed with the steel to help out the drifting.

Mainehunt · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Skip, my point in posting those results was to show reloaders are not at a disadvantage in terms of component quality. I suspect such tests would show changes from one brand to another based on production lots. Yes we have all been told the more perfectly round shot the better the patterns. However, Hevi-Shot has kind of turned this theory on it's head as it has some of the most imperfect pellets yet patterns deadly tight.

Here is a photo I took of some heavy shot next to one steel shot. The photo shows just how "out-of-round" this stuff is.

This had not been fired, we cut it out of an unfired cartridge. Blurry, but my phone doesn't take close-ups very well.

Hevi shot.png

Skip · Guru

It is a puzzlement that Hevi-shot.. that is anything but round, patterns so well..and it does. Wish it was not so expensive as it would make the finest crow loads. The answer as to why it patterns so well: density.

Skip

Mainehunt · Guru

Skip wrote:
It is a puzzlement that Hevi-shot.. that is anything but round, patterns so well..and it does. Wish it was not so expensive as it would make the finest crow loads. The answer as to why it patterns so well: density.
Skip

A guy I know was patterning different loads. Was shooting at 40 yds. Putting paper targets on 1/2" plywood. The steel shot in #4s did not go through the plywood. The Hevi-shot went through and left long splinters on backside.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:
It is a puzzlement that Hevi-shot.. that is anything but round, patterns so well..and it does. Wish it was not so expensive as it would make the finest crow loads. The answer as to why it patterns so well: density.
Skip

Exactly, that's why 6's are superior to 7.5's at long range biggrin

Mike27 · Senior Member

Maine,

Was the Hevi also 4's

Pat B · Senior Member

Badminton birdies come to mind. Also nuts, bolts, and bits of chain from cannon barrel....

Critter · Veteran Member

Magnum lead #6 and 7.5 have the same density. Roughly 11 gcc. What the 6 has over the 7.5 is mass. More mass = more energy downrange IF the density is the same.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Critter wrote:
Magnum lead #6 and 7.5 have the same density. Roughly 11 gcc. What the 6 has over the 7.5 is mass. More mass = more energy downrange IF the density is the same.

ya that too smile

wingmaster · Senior Member

Think it like the Black Cloud with some non round pellets inside it. Hey if what ever patterns best in gun & doesn't cost go for it. Hev-shot does break the rules of not been round

Hev-shot pattern fine for my turkey load in my Benelli 20ga Nova with a Hev-shot choke no 5 - 6 shot. So what I think it comes down to pattern and how far will it reach out & touch em to knock anything down. Just my thought or 2 cents

:

Mike27 · Senior Member

Maine,

As you know, size 4 in steel vs Hevi is not apples to apples. The rule was to drop two sizes from steel to equal lead, even three for Hevi. I 'd like to hear the results with size 1 in steel shot through the ply. I'm not a fan of steel on geese, but going bang, bang, bang out of the 10 Ga. would be about $12 with the Hevi shot.

Mike

-- Edited by Mike27 on Thursday 19th of January 2012 08:09:44 PM

Mainehunt · Guru

Mike27 wrote:
Maine,
Was the Hevi also 4's

Yes, both steel and Hevishot were 4's.

Kev

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nhcrowshooter · Guru

http://littletonshotmaker.com/

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 23rd of January 2012 11:30:23 PM

Shotgunner · Member

8fisherman said

"I shoot near pure lead. It is range lead and I do not know what the BHN of it is but it is very soft. A 1 1/8 oz shot bar throws a charge weight of 1.2 oz. Mag shot usually throws a charge less than 1.125 oz. It is not perfectly round either. As a mater of fact it looks terrible. It is made with a set of 6 shot dippers. "

I am a bullet caster and am all ears regarding this homemade shot you are talking about. I recall reading years ago about some kit that tried to actually drop the liquid shot through a screen into water but of course couldn't drop it nearly as far as the commercial stuff does. You are talking about "shot dippers"????? I would sure appreciate more on how this works and where I can get/make the tools I need to make shot as I have a fairly good supply of dead soft lead that's too soft for revolver bullets anyway.

8fishermen · Guru

Shotgunner,

Welcome to the forum.

My friend has a shotmaker. There are two on the market that I am aware of. There are several threads on Shotgunworld and also Trapshooters. The shotmakers are designed to use wheel weights.

The range lead is softer and works better through the 7 1/2's and 8's dippers. The 6's are not as round. The best patterning efficiency at 40 yards I have been able to achieve with the smaller shot is a little over 70%. It will break face on clays at 40 yards ever time but a dome on or edge on could slip through. A crow will not slip through at 50 if I do my part. I am not good enough to notice the difference between the homemade shot and factory on clays or crows.

Out of pocket per box is very reasonable. Pennies on the dollar compared to factory shot. I process the range scrap and take it to my friend and he makes the shot on a 70/30 split. Take him 100 lbs of ingots and you get back 70 lbs of graphited shot.

8fishermen · Guru

Shotgunner,

The biggest drawback to the shotmakers is finding enough lead. Most that own the shotmakers have already hit this wall and will trade shot for lead. Check on trapshooters for someone making shot near you or at shotgun ranges near you. I looked into it and you will drop a grand into it before you can blink an eye. It is a tinker's dream come true as there are lots of kinks to work out before they run smoothly. Lots more to it that just a $400 dripper.

After it is set up you still have to have a way to wash, grade, graphite, and package the shot. A lot of hidden aspects that are not in casting bullets.

Good luck either way.

Shotgunner · Member

Thanks for the quick response. I watched the video and did some searching myself last night for shot makers. I see that while it's not a huge investment, it's not cheap either. At the rate I get to shoot nowadays, it's not feasible to invest $400 - $500 to make shot. I already have about 14 bags stashed away. That $400-$500 I would spend for the shot maker would buy 10 more bags of factory shot. I don't shoot over a couple hundred shots a year anymore. disbelief I used to shoot 500 shells a WEEK - would have been worthwhile at that time - but shot was dirt cheap back then too. smile

Still, I can't help but consider buying or even making a nozzle, mounting it into a cast iron skillet on a hotplate(don't laugh - I am one of those tinkerers you mentioned! biggrin ) and seeing what I get. IF I recall, the nozzle of the LEE pots can be removed and a homemade nozzle could be installed. Production would be slow but cheap. If I can do it cheap, it's worthwhile. I don't need high volumes of shot, so slow is fine. The nozzles look like they would be easy to make with a drill press or lathe. What I don't quite understand is that the lead appears to actually fall onto the angled plate right under the dripper before it hits the water. I would think that would flatten the pellets?!? Shouldn't the lead fall directly into the water?

Yeah, I know what you mean about lead being scarce. Tire shops won't even talk to you about wheelweights any more. I found 400+lbs at a scrap yard about a year ago and grabbed it right away - the 1st I had found in years.

8fishermen · Guru

Shotgunner, To use water the temp must be maintained near the boiling point otherwise it is dangerous. My kids and I were were shooting about 500 rounds a week last year also and that is not enough volume to justify a shotmake. $500 will only cover the maker itself. The coolant system and additional processing equipment is where you will drop another grand before you can blink an eye. It is a very time consuming process. This is why we found someone who already had one set up.