Crow Busters Forum

Hello 5 shot,

I like 7 1/2's or 8's for crows.

Here are a few shoots using these shot sizes.

Welcome aboard 5shot. "Fives" were my favorite back when lead was legal for ducks.

To the crows now. If your seeing feathers come off crows you are shooting at I would suggest opening up your choke and dropping to 7 1/2 or 8 shot.

If your birds are coming in tight as they hopefully will and your using too much choke, fringe hits will be common unless a guy can point real well. Result will often be lots of winged birds as many novices then assume more power and larger shot is required.

Hope this helps.

.

 

Ted

Thank you everyone for your responses. I will try and keep everyone posted. Any thoughts on my decoy question?

5shot welcome from upstate NY, stick with the 6s

Bob wrote:

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Same is true for 7 1/2 shot in the right hands.

Bob A.

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The right hands can not change the laws of physics, larger pellets with a greater mass will always have more retained velocity and energy at longer range.  Because of this they pattern better at long range.  7.5's and 8's do not work as well as larger shot in the 45 to 65 yard range.  A man will consistently kill more crows at those ranges with the larger shot, conversely at that range you will see more crows showing signs of hits, pulled feathers, leg hanging and flying away with the smaller shot, right hands or not.  The greater effectiveness of larger shot at long range was clearly demonstrated by the World record holder for long range shotgunning, George Digweed.  In all his world record attempts shooting clays at what are incredible/ridiculous ranges he switched from 7.5's to 6 (European #5) at the longest ranges. 

The suggestions of open chokes and small shot to fill the pattern are generally suggested for less experienced wing shooters with the idea to learn to get them close and allow the wider pattern to help the gunner hit more birds.  Regular practice each week with a shotgun on skeet, trap and sporting clays will build one's wing shooting skills to a level where long shots are quite doable and close shots with tight chokes are simple affairs.

If birds have been hunted hard or you are on public land where building a really good blind or other factors have you in an area where they often won't commit, a tight choke and larger shot, 5 or 6's is going to be more effective.  However, long shots are almost always more difficult than a close one and that is where practice really pays off. 

The only downside to using larger shot, 5 and 6, is the lack of economical quality factory loads sold for trap/skeet and sporting clays.  If you are not reloading you are faced with a choice of expensive premium hunting loads or cheap stuff like Remington Game Loads that use lower quality components and don't perform as well. 

PS. Bob whether you mean to or not it seems you are suggesting that the original poster is a bad shot i.e. the poor performance of target size shot he reports is because the gun and shot size is in the "wrong hands"? 

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 26th of February 2012 01:09:09 PM

nhcrowshooter wrote:

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5 shot I think it is pretty near impossible for anyone here to give the precise information you need to kill more crows with the info we have from you. If you are pulling feathers often (at ranges you do not think is close) and are not killing crows it sounds like your range is long and possibly too long, if so by going to a more open choke and smaller shot will result in even worse results. One thing I can tell you with certainty is that a crow centered for a full choke gun with #6 is more often than not going to be coming down even at 60 yards. The trick at that range is centering them. So if only bigger shot is working I expect you shooting them at very long range. Try to work on getting them in closer. You mentioned tall trees, 75 feet , how close to tall trees are you setting up? The crows will always be above the tree canopy so try, if you haven't already already. to find the low spots or openings where the birds will funnel to and be lower. As far as number 5 shot, it will work very well at the longest ranges, just ask 8fisherman.

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 Fish Crow Fives!!!!

 

Trust me, 5's and 6's will kill crows MUCH farther that most can point or even believe is possible.

 

Got a few hundred loaded and destined for a peanut field in the morning.

 

Welcome and good luck.

You can kill crows with any shot size from #9 all the way to #4 shot. I use 6's or 7.5s.  If you choose a particular load, play to it's strength. For instance pattern your loads and decide if 45 yards is their limit, then recognize how that shot looks. In the right hands,and choke each shooter must recognize the limits of that combo. I have seen crows fall at 45 yards with a skeet choke and 8 shot. But, that said I believe 7.5 and mod choke is a better choice at that range. Let your gun and/or choke tell you what your skill level warrants. For instance if you are shooting "tall" birds then 5's or 6's might be a good choice. It has a lot to do with situation, we all want them close. But sometimes close may be 40 yards. My partner and I try to adapt to what the birds are doing. If we know they will decoy in to "tennis racket range" then it's imp cyl. choke and 8 or 7.5s, but if they are shy then it is #6 and light mod or mod choke. I use a carlson lightmod sporting clays choke because it works well with a lot of different loads in my benelli. I just change shells, depending on how the birds are reacting

Hey Bob , you are a crow hunter and I take it a bit of a gambler. I have not insulted you. Here is the deal, why not settle this like honorable men and with a reasonable test.  I have the courage of my convictions reagrding which shot size is more effective at long range. We can meet at a place of your choosing during a crow season, you shoot 7.5's and 8's and I'll shoot 6 (out of a 12ga), we will place stakes at 50, 60 and 70 yards. We take an equal number of shots at crows, crows that fall between 50 and 60 yards are worth 1 point, 60 and 70 yards 2 points, beyond 70 yards 3 points. Winner pays for travel and lodging of the loser.

PS. Although certainly impressive and something many envy, tall number of crows killed only shows one thing, more crows to shoot at, not the effectiveness of the load or the skill of the shooter.

PPS.  I won't use the words you did but to suggest physics has nothing to do with the shooting of shotguns and game is to say, velocity, mass, and energy means nothing, when in fact they mean a great deal.  Ex. a 22 rimfire will a kill a deer dead in it's tracks in the right hands, that does not make the best choice for deer shooting. 

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 26th of February 2012 02:25:03 PM

nhcrowshooter wrote:

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Bob, I am coming to believe that the so called death by "shock effect" is long held belief but essentially an old wive's tale same as the long held belief that shooting damascus and twist barrel shotguns with nitro powders will cause them to blow up. Crows may seem like they are fragile but they have a tenacity to stay alive too as evidenced by what everyone has experienced, hoppers and flying wounded. Every bird that I have bothered to pluck has been taken down by pellets to the head or neck or vital organs OR they were brought down by shot disabling thier ability to fly.  Here is some educational reading on the subject from our colleagues across the pond.

"A clean kill is caused by sufficient pellet strikes on the quarry’s body, with each pellet being large enough (i.e. having enough energy) to penetrate and damage the well-protected and deep-lying vital organs. The size of pellet, in relation to the size and range of the quarry, is critical – the larger and/or farther away the quarry the larger the pellets need to be.

The number of pellets striking is mainly dependent on the cartridge and, to some extent only, the degree of choke (i.e. the constriction in a barrel to concentrate the pellets on the target) being used.

•Large pellets (with ‘large’ energy) are needed to penetrate vital organs. Damage to vital organs is what kills – lots of small pellets (with insufficient energy to reach those organs) do not kill, as is widely believed, by ‘shock effect’."

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/respect-for-quarry.cfm

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WOW, you keep posting facts and you will be baned from this site!!!!! it is like when my brother was shot at 45 yds with 43 pellets of 7 1/2's and it did not kill him but if that would have been buck shot even with a lot less pellets he would have been dead

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Sunday 26th of February 2012 06:33:12 PM

No right or wrong here, it all depends on preference. I use a few different shot sizes including 6's. I've killed crows with everything from #9's to #4"s the key is hitting them.  Let it go, for  sake.

-- Edited by watch em fall on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:11:18 PM

10 gauge when you have killed over 100,000 crows then you will have the right to say the assinine thing you just said.

Bob A.

Hello Pete,

No way would I take you into my crow hunting area just to proove a point, I've got nothing to proove.

I will say this, perhaps we are both right. By this I mean that with your 6's you have more energy at long range, I'm not disputing that, so you are killing the birds with penetration whereas I am killing the birds with the shock effect with little or no penetration. The reason I favor the shot size I do is because on average I can knock more birds out of the air at 50 to 60 yards because I can put more shot on the mark with 7 1/2's than 6's. You just happen to go the other way and go for fewer hits with more penetration to the vitals, but either way the birds are dead in the air, or at least most of them are.

Bob A.

Pete,

I'm not going to take time out of my crow season where I can get more shooting in a couple of days than you get all season long. It just isn't worth it to me, I'd rather be killing crows than conducting field tests.

Bob A.

Bob you should take the time to read all of Brister's Book. His observations went beyond just mallards. He talked about all the studies and tests for shooting live pigeons in competition (a thin skinned bird). It was determined that penetration of vital organs was needed to down pigeons inside the ring not shock. Rules limit the shot size to nothing larger than 7. Testing proved that harder shot penetrated birds much better than softer shot so pigeon shooter moved to the hardest shot possible, nickel plated.

"Perhaps the most convincing demonstration of penetration significance comes from the most precise testing ground in the world, the competitive live pigeon rings of Europe. More than 5000 pigeons are shot at every weekend on the European pigeon circuit,with regular shoots every weekend in Spain or Italy.

Since Shooters fire from carefully measured yardages and birds must fly only 17 1/2 yards from their point of release to the boundary fence(pst which they are considered missed whether dead or not) it is obvious that that much can be learned on the subject of which sort of shot instantly kills birds from various yardages"

Inside 17 1/2 yards, using your theory every live pigeon shooter would be using 9's. Funny thing when that kind of money is on the line they use the largest hardest shot allowed and available, why is that?

PS. You shot your ducks with 7.5's when lead was legal, I guess you weren't planning on eating them

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 27th of February 2012 12:07:42 AM

10 gauge,

I've used 6's when I first started out and I just happened to get better results with 7 1/2's and 8's is all.

I know that you and NH like to beat the drum about 6's, if you like them go ahead and use them, just don't try to tell me they are more effective than 7 1/2's between 50 and 60 yards because they are not. The only difference is that you and NH are big on "energy per pellet and penetration" and you don't need it to kill crows! I have a higher average overall killing crows at all ranges with a trap load, I'm killing them with multiple hits (many multiple hits) which creats shock, and shock is a deadly killer. Does it kill them better than 6's, I doubt it very much, but I go with what has worked for me for a lot longer than 38 seasons, I only kept track of how many I shot during the past 38 seasons.

The more you talk 10 gauge the worse it gets in regard to me killing way more crows with 6's over the years. Anyone reading this great debate can watch documented proof on film what 7 1/2's can do with a trap load on high birds. Just watch the 551 bird shoot in "The Art of Crow Hunting" dvd that Crowmart sells. Now as to the yardage on some of these birds being killed graveyard dead with 7 1/2's is anywhere from 50 to 60 yards on the differen't birds being killed. When it takes 3 seconds or more for a bird to hit the ground he ain't close! Just count the seconds for some of those high ones to fall for any one of you guys reading this who have seen this DVD on crow hunting.

Now many were killed from point blank range on up to 30 yards as well in this production. Now 10 gauge and NH always bring up my plugging that dvd. Like it or hate it you can see some outstanding high bird shooting in that dvd that is documented proof of the effectiveness of 7 1/2 shot "in the right hands" what does 10 gauge have...... plenty of hot air I can tell you that!

Bob A.

The thrower will pull feathers from the bird to make it fly in a certain direction.  The birds has to go over the wire between the two poles in front of the thrower and shooter to be a legal target.  The PETA folks couldn't give a rat's butt about human safety, what they care about are the pigeons.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 27th of February 2012 01:32:18 AM

We now interrupt this conversation for a commercial break..........

I had to get in after all that reading.

nh,

I've taken birds with 7/8 oz. of 7 1/2's out of a 20 ga. also past 40 yds. Small stuff works on crows. I did have a full choke in.

Using a 12 You better start loading those 2 7/8's faster.

Bob, I am coming to believe that the so called death by "shock effect" is long held belief but essentially an old wive's tale same as the long held belief that shooting damascus and twist barrel shotguns with nitro powders will cause them to blow up. Crows may seem like they are fragile but they have a tenacity to stay alive too as evidenced by what everyone has experienced, hoppers and flying wounded. Every bird that I have bothered to pluck has been taken down by pellets to the head or neck or vital organs OR they were brought down by shot disabling thier ability to fly.  Here is some educational reading on the subject from our colleagues across the pond.

"A clean kill is caused by sufficient pellet strikes on the quarry’s body, with each pellet being large enough (i.e. having enough energy) to penetrate and damage the well-protected and deep-lying vital organs. The size of pellet, in relation to the size and range of the quarry, is critical – the larger and/or farther away the quarry the larger the pellets need to be.

The number of pellets striking is mainly dependent on the cartridge and, to some extent only, the degree of choke (i.e. the constriction in a barrel to concentrate the pellets on the target) being used.

•Large pellets (with ‘large’ energy) are needed to penetrate vital organs. Damage to vital organs is what kills – lots of small pellets (with insufficient energy to reach those organs) do not kill, as is widely believed, by ‘shock effect’."

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/respect-for-quarry.cfm

NH, there is no "so called about it" I've plucked quite a few crows in my day to see what the pellets do on dead crows killed at long range. Many dead birds just had the skin broken (with congealed blood where the pellet struck the bird) while others had the shot barely stuck inside the skin, nowhere near the vitals. These were all body shots, no broken wings to bring them down. So, what you are saying is simply not true. It ain't no wives tale!

About the only thing I agree with in what your friend 10 gauge had to say was that if you have lots more birds to work on does not make you a better crow hunter, I could not agree more. If you guys want to shoot 6's I'm not saying not too, I'm just saying that 7 1/2's work much better for me. You and your partner can talk all you want about pellets having to hit the vitals inorder to kill crows, total BS! On ducks and geese with thick down I would agree, but not crows.

Bob A.

BUZZ wrote:

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I have tried several combos as far as shot size and choke. I use mod choke and 6 shot.....seems to work best for me. Same set up a few of my hunting buddys setteled on as well.

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 Buzz ,watch out your walking on thin ice  lol, so i am finding out, 6's only work better when you try them ! thanks Buzz

It's not just the Brits shining the light of day on what kills game. Some more educational reading.

"It's energy transfer that kills game. Penetration, shock, breaking bones and damaging vital organ systems in a manner than incapacitates your target and causes it to die just about the time it hits the ground. You hit game with a projectile fired from your gun. Be it several pellets from you shotgun or a single rifle bullet fired at big game. The more energy the projectiles hit the game with, the more effectively the game will be killed, everything else being equal. Physics and Mr. Brister says that big pellets moving as fast as possible deliver more energy than smaller pellets moving slower. Read the book, physics is a queer thing sometimes. It can actually be better to hit your target with just couple large pellets than a mob of small ones. Big pellets carry and retain more energy better downrange. Small pellets start out with less energy individually and they lose that energy faster. That is smaller pellets slow down quicker than big ones. (Again, I leave this in the hands of Messrs. Newton and Brister) "

http://www.thecheckcord.com/archives/scattergun.html