I've chatted on here before about reloading for crows but I have finally collected everything together to actually get it done this time. :)
This evening I loaded 250 rounds of 12 gauge cartridges. 1 ounce loads of #6 shot with 19 grains of Red Dot powder. It patterns great, can't wait to get out on opening day, which is this coming Monday. As luck would have it, I don't have to call in sick that day because it's Martin Luther King day so school is closed. ( I teach)
Charles and I are going to where I killed over a hundred last January. :)
Kev
thats the main reason i just bought a loader (for crow). Im also using red dot and thinking about using 5 & 6 shot mix. Do u have any pics of your patterns? id love to have a look. Keep us posted on it and good luck!
thats the main reason i just bought a loader (for crow). Im also using red dot and thinking about using 5 & 6 shot mix. Do u have any pics of your patterns? id love to have a look. Keep us posted on it and good luck!
Sorry, no photos of patterns.
The shot I have now is 6, I also bought a bag of #5.
Last season I was using factory loads of 1 &1/8 ounce loads of 7&1/2 and my buddy and I could see the shot hitting the crows and feathers coming off but many didn't fall. To be fair, they were flying higher than normal that day and were not decoying well. However he had some of his reloads, they were 7/8 ounce loads of #5 shot. We killed many more that day using those lighter loads of the 5 shot.
I have great luck with 7&1/2 when they decoy close, but they don't always come in the way I dream about.
Last season I was using factory loads of 1 &1/8 ounce loads of 7&1/2 and my buddy and I could see the shot hitting the crows and feathers coming off but many didn't fall. To be fair, they were flying higher than normal that day and were not decoying well. However he had some of his reloads, they were 7/8 ounce loads of #5 shot. We killed many more that day using those lighter loads of the 5 shot.
I have great luck with 7&1/2 when they decoy close, but they don't always come in the way I dream about.
Kev
Not exactly news here Kev, I have been encouraging folks to try 6 shot in light loads as you suggest. As you found out through experience it does work better on crows than the 7 1/2 and 8 shot. Reloading is the way to go if you want to use the best possible shot shell for killing crows.
thats the main reason i just bought a loader (for crow). Im also using red dot and thinking about using 5 & 6 shot mix. Do u have any pics of your patterns? id love to have a look. Keep us posted on it and good luck!
Sorry, no photos of patterns.
The shot I have now is 6, I also bought a bag of #5.
Last season I was using factory loads of 1 &1/8 ounce loads of 7&1/2 and my buddy and I could see the shot hitting the crows and feathers coming off but many didn't fall. To be fair, they were flying higher than normal that day and were not decoying well. However he had some of his reloads, they were 7/8 ounce loads of #5 shot. We killed many more that day using those lighter loads of the 5 shot.
I have great luck with 7&1/2 when they decoy close, but they don't always come in the way I dream about.
Kev
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get ready for the BOB blast, 6 's are the BEST!!! try it you will like it. 10gacs
NH crow, I know we talked about 6's before. Like I said here and a year ago. If I had all my crows decoying close (25 yds and closer) all of the time, I could be happy with the #7.5 shot. But shooting at distance, like 50-60 yards, the 5's and 6's prevailed.
The other thing that we talked about last year was my "new" double gun. That old Lefever and I have become close friends in the last year. AND I did some trading and acquired a 2nd one. I swapped my wife's treadmill and got another Lefever. This one has 28" barrels and both are I/C. (It matches well to the other which has 30" barrels FULL/MOD.
Now for a 10 gauge..................
Kev
Regardless of how fine, how well chokes, how figured the wood is, what gauge it is, how wonderful your reloads are.... double have one serious flaw. They only go... Bang....Bang... not ideal for multiple incoming targets!!
skip
Classic American Double guns are like Harley Davidson motorcycles, if I have to explain you ain't going to understand.
Double guns do have a slower rate of fire. They do offer one advantage, instantaneous selection of choke. Many states including mine have a 3 shot rult for crows so the advantage of repeater is not as great. With two gunners in the blind we are not often both out at the same time. A repeater can teach a person bad habits as I have found the average wingshooter is firing hail mary's by their 3rd shot. A double gun will teach you to make your shots count and a couple of well placed shots usually beats a rapid emptying of a magazine.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 17th of January 2013 11:57:23 PM
My choice load is 1 oz of lead on top of 20gr of International Clays...gives me a little better than 1235fps. I have 4, 5, 6, 71/2 loaded and before I reload more I'm going to use these up. When I go out, its a mixed bag of above shot.... When I do reload the next batch, it'll be 6's.
My choice load is 1 oz of lead on top of 20gr of International Clays...gives me a little better than 1235fps. I have 4, 5, 6, 71/2 loaded and before I reload more I'm going to use these up. When I go out, its a mixed bag of above shot.... When I do reload the next batch, it'll be 6's.
The only reason that I'm using Red Dot is because a friend of mine gets my reloading supplies for me. His father gets it in bulk and they both have years and years of shotshell reloading experience. I do pretty much whatever he suggests when it comes to shot shel reloading, shotguns, shooting clays, etc....
The book tells me that my 1 oz load over the 19 grains should be moving close to 1300 fps. I actually am loading closer to 19.5 grains.
I'm REALLY looking forward to shooting these loads on Monday.
We go a little against the norm here when it comes to reloading. Skeetshooter likes the slower burning powders like Longshot. I prefer a med slow like IMR 800 X, 20/28, or SR 7625. We use med fast burners, like int clays or green dot when we run out of everything else. The fast burners like red dot or clays are reserved for the clay fields. Don't confuse the slow burn rates with slow velocities. The opposite is actually true here. In general, the slower burning powders produce faster shot with lower pressures.
The 20/28 is my favorite of all of them. It give good speeds of around 1350 with 1.25 oz and is VERY clean burning. It also has a good powder charge weight of 23.5 grains. It is made by Alliant so it is cost effective also. It is the cleanest AND cheapest load that I shoot. The cheapest is because of its low charge weight compared to other similar velocity charges of other powders.
We both like a crow load that has a little sass about 'em. They are kind of like women... who wants one that doesn't talk back to ya ever once in a while.
Kev,
Good to see you posting again. Good luck Monday!
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
i have thought about it years ago and 100's of pattern test later ,you don't give up nothen with 5's and 6's. except more time picking up dead crows. 10gacs
-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Thursday 17th of January 2013 11:43:59 PM
We go a little against the norm here when it comes to reloading. Skeetshooter likes the slower burning powders like Longshot. I prefer a med slow like IMR 800 X, 20/28, or SR 7625. We use med fast burners, like int clays or green dot when we run out of everything else. The fast burners like red dot or clays are reserved for the clay fields. Don't confuse the slow burn rates with slow velocities. The opposite is actually true here. In general, the slower burning powders produce faster shot with lower pressures.
The 20/28 is my favorite of all of them. It give good speeds of around 1350 with 1.25 oz and is VERY clean burning. It also has a good powder charge weight of 23.5 grains. It is made by Alliant so it is cost effective also. It is the cleanest AND cheapest load that I shoot. The cheapest is because of its low charge weight compared to other similar velocity charges of other powders.
We both like a crow load that has a little sass about 'em. They are kind of like women... who wants one that doesn't talk back to ya ever once in a while.
Kev,
Good to see you posting again. Good luck Monday!
Thank you for saying so It's hard to stay excited about crow hunting during the months that I can't hunt them. Always busy with Archery tournaments, duck hunting, bow hunting, snowmobiling, ice fishing, etc...... Good to be back on here though........
You have my attention talking about that 20/28 powder. I know practically nothing about shot shell powders. I have been reloading for rifle and handguns for years, but just go going this week for shot gun.
Last year I bought a used Mec Sizemaster, but I never bought the supplies until last week.
Reloading doesn't save me money if I count my time, but I really enjoy making my cartridges that I hunt with. Plus, I can never find the size shot that I want in the cheaper low-brass shells.
That old Lefever and I have become close friends in the last year. AND I did some trading and acquired a 2nd one. I swapped my wife's treadmill and got another Lefever. This one has 28" barrels and both are I/C. (It matches well to the other which has 30" barrels FULL/MOD. Now for a 10 gauge.................. Kev
That has to be the best damn trade I have ever heard of!!!!!!!! Kevin once you learn to load for the 2 7/8" 10 ga and find a nice old 10ga double chambered for it you'll wonder why it took you so long to get one.
Regardless of how fine, how well chokes, how figured the wood is, what gauge it is, how wonderful your reloads are.... double have one serious flaw. They only go... Bang....Bang... not ideal for multiple incoming targets!!
Regardless of how fine, how well chokes, how figured the wood is, what gauge it is, how wonderful your reloads are.... double have one serious flaw. They only go... Bang....Bang... not ideal for multiple incoming targets!!
skip
Skip,
You forgot the explicts that follow that second Bang. That is when it hits ya! LOL
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
I use 36gram (1 and 1/4 ounce) loads of no 4 (american no 5) and even with light chokes will knock them out of the sky at 60 yards. Fantastic load, and never fails me
__________________
If it moves and is legal but also moral, SHOOT IT !!
One ounce of 8 shot in my 16 gauges, field loads @1165 fps. If I have to switch to a 12, then I shoot 1 1/8th ounce loads of 7 1/2 or 8 shot @1200-1265 fps. Promo loads most often with the 12's but when I see a deal I will buy premium fodder. Nothing more needed for the conditions I shoot crows under.
Ted
__________________
Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
Before you go loading tons of 5 shot, I would pattern your guns. On those 50, 60 yard shots, you will be able to reach out and get them with a heavier, denser pellet, but with possiibly with lots of holes for a crow to slip through.
Going from 7 1/2 to 5 shot you will have half the pellets.
That's right half. I'm not guessing, check a chart.
Generally speaking, larger shot patterns more densely than smaller shot. So just because you start with more pellets at the muzzle does not necessarily mean your are giving up a lot of pattern density down range.
The pattern board does not lie. Nor do dead fish crows at 70 + yards with 5's. Fish crows are 3/4 the size of American crows and trust me, they don't like 5's at 70 yards.
Try loading 5's and 7 1/2 or 8's in identical shot shells propelled with the same wad and powder. They will be launched at the same velocity but some where around 32+ yards you will start to see a dramatic change in pattern efficiency with the larger shot. The farther away from the muzzle the shot string gets, the wider both patterns get. However, the smaller shot's pattern core density is less as well as overall pattern size is greater than the larger shot's pattern will be. If you really want to see it at its fullest, try this... load some buck shot into one shell and 8's into another. Fired form the same gun and choke, the 8's pattern will be much larger than the buckshot. Both are carrying the same amount of energy at the muzzle. The difference is the energy of the 00 buck is divided about 9 pellets while the 8's are divided by 388. At some distance around 45 yard with a mod choke (from my experience anyway), the 8's pattern will be double the size of the 00. It is much easier for conditions to make a piece 8 shot change course than it is for the same conditions to cause a piece of 00 to change course. Its the same principal with 5's verses 7 1/2's but on a smaller scale.
Two years ago I shot over 500 pattern test with everything from 00 to 9's. I shot ranges of 10 yards out to 60 yards. I can confidently say that a crow will not survive a pattern of 5's at 60 yards patterning at 1/2 choke (which is a modified or 67% in a 30" circle at 40 yards). I have also spent considerable time practicing 60+ yard shots on the sporting clay range and 6's are devastating. There is a noticeable visual difference in the way a clay breaks at long distances when comparing 6's and 7 1/2's.
If anyone is interested, Shotgun Insight has an online program that will calculate pattern density and hits probability. I ran several hundred pattern boards through this program and it is a great time saver over sitting at the table and counting pellet strikes in a 30" circle.
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
So how many crows do you kill on average at 60 yards during your season?
The reason I ask is that I suspect you are dealing with very educated crows from being hunted way to much, not by you, I know you have more sense than that. I know that not every one can not pick up and just go and hunt another state at the drop of a hat if the birds are to spooky in your area. I suppose you do what you have to do to get some when they are real spooky.
I'm way to spoiled to put up with shooting like that, I just hunt areas once a month so as not to get them all spooky, but some of the areas I hunt I have never run into another crow hunter in over 20 years in some areas.
Some areas that I hunt do get pressure from other hunters. When the shooting gets as you describe I don't waste my time there, I pull out and go to a differen't county or state. I just let those spots go until the following season.
If you are still working this is near impossible, you have to be pretty much retired.
I'm an "Old School" type of crow hunter. To me having to resort to sky riding them at 60 yards is not crow hunting. There is nothing wrong with killing the high ones I enjoy it myself, makes a guy feel good, a true art form connecting on high birds. But this is not crow hunting, crow hunting to me is having the birds work in close enough where you can get doubles and triples.
I'm old enough to remember when the crows were soft all season long, only on occassion would you have to kill one past 35 yards. It was not all that long ago, I remember my old friend (Boyd Robeson) and I just got done at Ft. Cobb (1976) and we went to Wheeler County in Shamrock Texas after our Oklahoma hunt. Boyd and I killed over 3,000 crows in 7 days at Shamrock. All 20 gauge in those days, just a skeet load of 8's or 9's was all that was needed. Man those were some damn fine days!
Bob A.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I load all of my crow loads, and I use a hot 1.25 oz load of 7 1/2.............I have tried several different loads, and I keep coming back to that one, the only thing that seems to come close performance wise is Remington LR Express in 7.5, or Fiocchi GP in 7.5..........I just bought 2 cases of the Fiocchi, they are 1 3/8 loads, but I got a great deal on them at 9 bucks a box..........I also have decent luck with handicap trap loads, but they are around 8 bucks a box around here, so the extra dollar for an extra 1/2 ounce of bb's is worth it to me.....we are hunting a lot of high flyers by the end of the season due to other people hunting them, and missing a lot of them........
The load I use for my reloads is 37.5 gr of Blue Dot, and 1.25 oz of 7 or 7.5 shot at around 1400 fps.....I have patterned a lot of different HV loads, and I was actually surprised by the density of this load...........it patterned as good as any others I tried......I should also mention I am using an Imp. Mod. choke 100% of the time.....
To be honest... I have no idea how many we kill at 60+ yards but it is more that a few. Where we hunt here in the Pine Belt as it is known, there are lots of tall trees. The birds will decoy as well as they can but typically will only come to the deck height of the surrounding trees. Lots of tall timber, very few days where wind helps to keep them honest as you like to say, and a ton of fish crows which as you know do not decoy well at all. The fish crows travel in large groups and most that are killed are stove pipe shots at the outer ranges of a shotgun.
We have no competition to speak off. The birds we are hunting are not educated. The trees just kill us. We have Several dozen places to hunt and are constantly acquiring more. We travel as much as 1.5 hours from home. We are not willing to travel out of state though.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some shots where ALL the feathers come off. We just don't get that many of them and are not willing to travel out west where the trees are short.
I love the way you think of finding places where there are lots of soft shots. We are getting better at locating them but still have a long way to go.
__________________
"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
Its the same here, they are very educated crows here, and the slightest thing (decoys or dead crows on their backs or just one wing out) will spook them, and they'll be off somewhere else, so it a case of shoot 1-3 of them, then out the hide and tidy the pattern. Even then its often mostly shots in the 25-45 yard range, but 60 yard shots are by no means seldom either
__________________
If it moves and is legal but also moral, SHOOT IT !!
Th OP stated his friend was shooting 7/8 th ounce loads of 5 shot at crows. One could pattern that load all day long and it would still suck! I would rather have one hand tied behind my back as to shoot crows with that load. Local topography, availabe cover, relitive "smartness" of crows, etc...are all variables that must be overcome by crow hunters. If one has to shoot maximum loads of #5 or 6 shot at Sir Crow, then thats the way it is. To state that "the tide is turning" to large shot is just IMHO an opinion by some that are restricted to shooting under somewhat difficult conditions...with all due respect, just like stating an 8 cyl. engine is better than a 6 when going to the mall.
I probably shoot less that 10 percent of my crows at 50 yards or further just because thats the way I hunt crows. Most shots likely average under 30 yards, just like ducks, upland game, etc... . Further, the only way a crow shooter or any other bird shooter can stack up a sizable kill and decent shot/kill ratio is to get the birds in as tight as possible. That's why duck decoys were invented as well as hand or electronic callers! Scratching some crows down from 50- 60 yards plus is a lot of fun but is certainly not mainstream high volume crow shooting in my locale! Good luck, happy hunting and shoot straight
Ted
-- Edited by M12Shooter on Friday 18th of January 2013 04:48:09 PM
__________________
Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
Before you go loading tons of 5 shot, I would pattern your guns. On those 50, 60 yard shots, you will be able to reach out and get them with a heavier, denser pellet, but with possiibly with lots of holes for a crow to slip through.
Going from 7 1/2 to 5 shot you will have half the pellets.
That's right half. I'm not guessing, check a chart.
Here is 1 1/8 oz. a common load.
7 1/2 shot, 388 pellets
5 shot, 194 pellets
Half on the head.
Something to think about.
Mike
If you look back a year or so on this forum, you will find where I used to say very similar things about smaller shot being superior because of higher shot count.
However, since then, my friend Pentti has educated me on how fewer of the bigger shot works better where we hunt. Other than once or twice a year when the crows come in real close, we have to shoot them up high just like 8fisherman is talking about.
When I can kill them easier and quicker with a 1 ounce load of 5's or 6's than I can with 1 and an 1/8 ounce load of 7.5's, I have no more need to count the pellets.
Regardless of how fine, how well chokes, how figured the wood is, what gauge it is, how wonderful your reloads are.... double have one serious flaw. They only go... Bang....Bang... not ideal for multiple incoming targets!!
skip
Classic American Double guns are like Harley Davidson motorcycles, if I have to explain you ain't going to understand.
Double guns do have a slower rate of fire. They do offer one advantage, instantaneous selection of choke. Many states including mine have a 3 shot rult for crows so the advantage of repeater is not as great. With two gunners in the blind we are not often both out at the same time. A repeater can teach a person bad habits as I have found the average wingshooter is firing hail mary's by their 3rd shot. A double gun will teach you to make your shots count and a couple of well placed shots usually beats a rapid emptying of a magazine.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 17th of January 2013 11:57:23 PM
nhcrowshooter, I'm willing to try to explain it. (BTW- I had to give $75 with the treadmill for that trade. :)
I would almost rather shoot less crows with my double than more crows with a repeater.
Shooting crows with the double is like shooting deer with my bow instead of a rifle. For some of us, it isn't the number of crows killed, but the hunt itself. I'm sure it sounds corny as hell to some of you, but I like the nostalgia of holding and shooting the old double, (it was made in 1927) and killing crows and rabbits with it. I like to think that my Grandfathers are smiling down on me every time I hunt with my Lefever. Sort of like driving a Model A around at 35mph instead of all the comforts of a modern vehicle ...........................
Only times that 7.5 one ounce loads work here is when the birds come in close, and that is ONLY within the first 3 days of being planted. After that they get very wary, and look for other newly planted fields
__________________
If it moves and is legal but also moral, SHOOT IT !!
I've shot a ton of fish crows over the years. They do tend to want to circle like damn buzzards in large flocks. I hunt them in there feeding areas where "they have to come down to eat" I have had this happen many times while hunting fish crows, you take one that you believe to be 45 to 50 yards and as soon as he gets hit and the feathers fly you suddenly see that he was much closer than you orriginally thought. Until you can tell a fish crow from a common crow in flight this is what happens. You think you are shooting at a common crow at 45 to 50 yards when infact it's a fish crow flying at 30 to 35 yards!
Since you hunt fish crows and common crows you know what I am talking about.
On my Avitar there is a photo of Jerry Byroad's fish crow "Bandit" that photo was shot in Jerry's kitchen in Maryland. Here we are talking crows and Gordon Krause will be talking Bull Elephants! Yup, Gordon is headed back to "The Dark Continent" to bag a big tusker! Way to go Gord!
Good talking with you Greg.
Bob A.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
This is copied from THE CORNELL LAB OF ORNITHOLOGY-
"Not everyone realizes it, but there are two kinds of crows across much of the eastern United States. Looking almost identical to the ubiquitous American Crow, Fish Crows are tough to identify until you learn their nasal calls. Look for them around bodies of water, usually in flocks and sometimes with American Crows. They are supreme generalists, eating just about anything they can find. Fish Crows have expanded their range inland and northward along major river systems in recent decades.
* Size & Shape
Fish Crows fit the standard crow shape: hefty, well-proportioned birds with heavy bills, sturdy legs, and broad wings. At rest, Fish Crows’ wings fall short of their medium-length, square tails. * Color Pattern
Fish Crows are all black. Immatures are less glossy and can become brownish as their feathers wear in their first year. * Behavior
Fish Crows are very social birds—look for them in pairs in the breeding season and up to several hundred or more during migration or winter. When feeding and roosting they may mix with American Crows. When Fish Crows give their distinctive nasal calls from the ground, they often puff out their neck and body feathers, forming a distinctive, ragged ruff on the throat. * Habitat
Fish Crows live along the coasts and inland along major freshwater rivers and lakes. You may find Fish Crows in a wide variety of habitats near water, often in towns and cities near parks, docks, and landfills. They share many habitats with American Crows."
Seems the tide is turning and as people start reloading and trying #6 and even #5 find out there is plenty enough pattern and they work better as the range extends beyond 35 yards. A tight choke and #6 shot is the best all around combination for experienced crow hunter and good wingshot that knows what the range of the bird really is. As I have said before, don't take my word for it, try it, and try it some of you did.
Now we can move on to such topics as what crow hunting really is.
A crow hunter is in my mind a guy who goes every chance he gets when the season is open, irregardelss of weather, irregardless of having lots of birds to shoot. A guy who figures out how to kill them when it is tough, the birds that have been hunted and the birds that are scarce. If all you do is go for a few weeks when the birds are migrating and the shots come easy and fast you're the kid who licks the frosting off the cake and puts the piece of cake back on the plate when your done and tells everyone how good the cake was.
I once read an article (forget when and where but content remains vivid) about a fellow that took his worst patterning load and his best patterning load and fired 5 patterns of each. He then took a clear plastic cutout of a duck and just dropped it helter-skelter on each pattern and counted the "telling" hits. A hit in the wing feathers without hitting wingbone did not count, a hit in the tail feathers did not count. The result was that the best pattern load would have killed 5 ducks more out of 100. My take away from that article was ..... I am not that good of a shot to put the center of my pattern dead-on onto 100 consecutive birds. My pattern work usually now involves eyeballing the pattern to see if it is reasonably evenly spaced and the center is where I was shooting. I have settled on a load I like. I just have to settle on a size of shot I like for crows. As for speed. If you check a manual, loads that start at 1230 or 1330 are travelling within 25fps of each other at 60 yds (for the same size pellet). Also considering all the extra shooting we do crow hunting vs duck hunting I was not willing to live with the extra recoil of shooting a 1330fps load. Sure it wakes you up in the morning, sure it feels good to have that hard thump on your shoulder. But somewhere along the way you develop recoil-shyness. And that will make you put your pattern somewhere besides on the bird....
I'll bet that 7/8 ounce load of 5's patterns way better than you think. Less crushing and less bore scrub especially out of 12ga plus the physics of heavier pellets paterning tighter could lead to a deadly combination. A while back I posted a photo of a 40 yard pattern from a 20ga using #6 on a crow silouette, 15 hits from a very light load.
As far as speed, speed ruins patterns but you don't need speed when using pellets with a greater mass, the lower velocity in turn contributes to a denser pattern. For me I use 1 1/8 ounce loads of 6 at 1145 fps from a 12ga (standard target load weight and velocity) and 1 1/4 ounce load of 6 at 1170 fps from the 2 7/8" or Short Ten.
When armed with either load we can wreck 'em close and we can reach out and stone the far and tall ones with surety and authority that can't be equaled by target size shot.
As Greg has pointed out and confirmed a crow hunter who reloads and substitutes 6 shot for 7.5 or 8 has nothing to lose and everything to gain in performance on the target.
So how many crows do you kill on average at 60 yards during your season?
The reason I ask is that I suspect you are dealing with very educated crows from being hunted way to much, not by you, I know you have more sense than that. I know that not every one can not pick up and just go and hunt another state at the drop of a hat if the birds are to spooky in your area. I suppose you do what you have to do to get some when they are real spooky.
I'm way to spoiled to put up with shooting like that, I just hunt areas once a month so as not to get them all spooky, but some of the areas I hunt I have never run into another crow hunter in over 20 years in some areas.
Some areas that I hunt do get pressure from other hunters. When the shooting gets as you describe I don't waste my time there, I pull out and go to a differen't county or state. I just let those spots go until the following season.
If you are still working this is near impossible, you have to be pretty much retired.
I'm an "Old School" type of crow hunter. To me having to resort to sky riding them at 60 yards is not crow hunting. There is nothing wrong with killing the high ones I enjoy it myself, makes a guy feel good, a true art form connecting on high birds. But this is not crow hunting, crow hunting to me is having the birds work in close enough where you can get doubles and triples.
I'm old enough to remember when the crows were soft all season long, only on occassion would you have to kill one past 35 yards. It was not all that long ago, I remember my old friend (Boyd Robeson) and I just got done at Ft. Cobb (1976) and we went to Wheeler County in Shamrock Texas after our Oklahoma hunt. Boyd and I killed over 3,000 crows in 7 days at Shamrock. All 20 gauge in those days, just a skeet load of 8's or 9's was all that was needed. Man those were some damn fine days!
I'll bet that 7/8 ounce load of 5's patterns way better than you think. Less crushing and less bore scrub especially out of 12ga plus the physics of heavier pellets paterning tighter could lead to a deadly combination. A while back I posted a photo of a 40 yard pattern from a 20ga using #6 on a crow silouette, 15 hits from a very light load.
As far as speed, speed ruins patterns but you don't need speed when using pellets with a greater mass, the lower velocity in turn contributes to a denser pattern. For me I use 1 1/8 ounce loads of 6 at 1145 fps from a 12ga (standard target load weight and velocity) and 1 1/4 ounce load of 6 at 1170 fps from the 2 7/8" or Short Ten.
When armed with either load we can wreck 'em close and we can reach out and stone the far and tall ones with surety and authority that can't be equaled by target size shot.
As Greg has pointed out and confirmed a crow hunter who reloads and substitutes 6 shot for 7.5 or 8 has nothing to lose and everything to gain in performance on the target.
Yea, but i can put 25+ in a 10" circle all day long using my handloads of 1.25 oz #7.5 at 1400 fps.........
I'll bet that 7/8 ounce load of 5's patterns way better than you think. Less crushing and less bore scrub especially out of 12ga plus the physics of heavier pellets paterning tighter could lead to a deadly combination. A while back I posted a photo of a 40 yard pattern from a 20ga using #6 on a crow silouette, 15 hits from a very light load.
As far as speed, speed ruins patterns but you don't need speed when using pellets with a greater mass, the lower velocity in turn contributes to a denser pattern. For me I use 1 1/8 ounce loads of 6 at 1145 fps from a 12ga (standard target load weight and velocity) and 1 1/4 ounce load of 6 at 1170 fps from the 2 7/8" or Short Ten.
When armed with either load we can wreck 'em close and we can reach out and stone the far and tall ones with surety and authority that can't be equaled by target size shot.
As Greg has pointed out and confirmed a crow hunter who reloads and substitutes 6 shot for 7.5 or 8 has nothing to lose and everything to gain in performance on the target.
Yea, but i can put 25+ in a 10" circle all day long using my handloads of 1.25 oz #7.5 at 1400 fps.........
at what distance? and 25 hits with 7 1/2 or 5 hits with bigger shot, dead is dead! but with 5's and 6s 1yd to 65 yds dead is dead, why limit your self, why not load 1 1/2 oz 7 1/2 and get even more hits. 10gacs
What I find kind of interesting when you hear guys say they kill crows at 60 to 70 yards is this, is it really that far? Some guys (very few) get to shoot at a lot of long shots where they get plenty of experience. The vast majority do not.
The vast majority of wing shots can't hit there ass with both hands past 45 yards no matter what size shot they are shooting. Skill level is far more important than shot size, no matter what size of shot you prefer. If you don't put the pattern on the target it makes no difference what you are shooting.
You take an overhead shot at 35 yards almost straight up and the average guy will think it's a 60 yard shot! When I hear most fellas talk about how far they kill them I just take it with a grain of salt.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
...or shoot 1 1/2 ounce loads of lead 2's? same ~ number of pellets as one ounce of 5's, and way more than 7/8th ounce of the same. Then a guy could kill crows cleanly at nominal ranges and spank em' right out to 80 yards with all that retained NRG!
My comment, foolishness, yes! Whole point of this site is to pass off useful info to both seasoned vets as well as newcomers to the sport as well. Suggesting someone load and shoot 7/8 th ounce "roll-yer-owns" of 5 shot at crows would be like teaching someone to drive an auto at NASCAR.
Ted
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Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
What I find kind of interesting when you hear guys say they kill crows at 60 to 70 yards is this, is it really that far? Some guys (very few) get to shoot at a lot of long shots where they get plenty of experience. The vast majority do not.
The vast majority of wing shots can't hit there ass with both hands past 45 yards no matter what size shot they are shooting. Skill level is far more important than shot size, no matter what size of shot you prefer. If you don't put the pattern on the target it makes no difference what you are shooting.
You take an overhead shot at 35 yards almost straight up and the average guy will think it's a 60 yard shot! When I hear most fellas talk about how far they kill them I just take it with a grain of salt.
Bob A.
the ones i know are 60 to 70 yds kills are crossing shots that i can pace off, don't know how high most of my tall over head shots are so i don't say, the point here is bigger shot does work better at all shotgun ranges, oh ya i am not the average guy ,i have over 40 years of shotgun shooting from black birds to geese, i shoot 1000's of round a year all year long, not just when the "fluff shots "start to show up. i can remember the last time i pick up factory load lead shot shells, i am thinking 35 years or more, i get into all shotgun gun sports and "rolling my own", so i think by now i know what 60 or 70 yds is. 10gacs
On most long shots I don't care who it is, they don't know exactly how far the bird is, all they know is that they have the ability to reach out and touch it!
For example, I might get on a high bird and I know I have a fairly good chance of conking him, once they get to 50 yards or more all I know is "thats far"
I had Dick use a range finder on some of our high bird shooting. Most guys encluding me have a dendency to over estimate range because there are no land marks up there in the clear blue sky. On birds that I thought were 50 to 55 yards were infact 47 to 48 yards. Some that I thought were 60 yards were actually 65 yards so you just don't know the exact yardage in the blink of an eye.
I myself don't see the need to reload, I buy the ammo ( 7 1/2's ) in bulk and that suites me. Others like to reload there own, I was there once uppon a time and enjoyed it at that time in my life.
What ever shot size, choke, model shotgun you shoot, the main thing is that you enjoy yourself in the field and stay safe.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
When I started this thread, my only intension was to share my excitement with hand loading my own shells and opening day being on Monday.
HONEST TO GOD, I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS IF YOU SHOOT DOUBLE-OUGHT BUCKSHOT OR POWDERED SUGAR AT THE CROWS, I JUST HOPE THAT YOU ALL GET OUT AND KILL SOME.
Shoot them with a Howitzer if you wish a throw a damnable rolling pin at them.
Climb the roost tree at night and wring their necks, an old man in Ohio said he did that once.
Seriously guys, I don't want to argue over shot size. I'm done with that.
One thing is for sure though. Monday morning is supposed to be 3 degrees and clear,but my friends and I are going to have a blast, we'll kill some at 10 yards, we'll kill some at over 50. And I'm positive that we'll miss many of them all all ranges.
Cheers.
Kev
For once I thought we were having a great conversation without feathers being ruffled, pun intended.
Bob,
Thanks for sharing that about the range finder. I have thought of trying to borrow one just to see how far they were but didn't know if you could get a reading on a flying bird against the sky. I have taken dead birds and stepped them off at ten yard intervals to see what size they appear to be at distances out to 70 yards. I will try to do that with some American crows and Fish crows and take pics. I think most of us have stepped off a bird that fell parallel to us to see if we can estimate the distance but that is still a guess at best.
Where I have had the best experience practicing distance judging is at the sporting clay range. I have marked off distances to where clays break and 70 yards looks like a mile. There is a serious delay when a clay breaks at 70 yards. Something else I have noticed on the long shots when shooting clays is at 40+ yards is where the faster loads can really be seen. We have one springing teal shot that is launched straight up at 42 yards from the station. At the apex of the flight (where the clay looks like it is suspended in mid air) you still need about 3 feet of lead shooting loads at 1200 fps. Crank those up to 1300+ and you can get away with shooting straight at the bird. I shoot much better long range birds with faster loads whether they are live or clay. I know the books say speed deterioration makes muzzle velocity not matter that much but I can sure tell it on the score card. You obviously do very well with the trap loads but I am not that good so the heavier shot and higher velocities help me cheat a little and I need all the help I can get. lol
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"If money can fix it, it ain't broke" The great theologian and my crow hunting partner AW.
Of you get a range finder, get one that's good. A lot take ages (3-5 seconds ) to get a range, while others do it in less than a second. Having a big name isn't a guarantee of being a good one. My mate bought one, and it cost him £470.00 (plus p&p) and takes forever (5 seconds), and only has max 400 metres. I bought one direct from china, cost me £83.00 INCLUDING express registered P&P) and has a range of 800 metres on small objects, 1700 metres on large house sized. And it does it in 0.5 seconds. The thing is, they are all made in china, and just badged by the importer to be sold as whatever make they wish, with that ever profit margin that make brings.
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If it moves and is legal but also moral, SHOOT IT !!
When I started this thread, my only intension was to share my excitement with hand loading my own shells and opening day being on Monday. HONEST TO GOD, I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS IF YOU SHOOT DOUBLE-OUGHT BUCKSHOT OR POWDERED SUGAR AT THE CROWS, I JUST HOPE THAT YOU ALL GET OUT AND KILL SOME. Shoot them with a Howitzer if you wish a throw a damnable rolling pin at them. Climb the roost tree at night and wring their necks, an old man in Ohio said he did that once. Seriously guys, I don't want to argue over shot size. I'm done with that. One thing is for sure though. Monday morning is supposed to be 3 degrees and clear,but my friends and I are going to have a blast, we'll kill some at 10 yards, we'll kill some at over 50. And I'm positive that we'll miss many of them all all ranges. Cheers. Kev
i too will be out in Maine and it will be cold, i too hope you kill lots of birds, keep us posted on how you make out, i will be in York county and it should be alot warmer there like 8 degrees LOL 10qacs
Judging distance in this sport is just like everything , practice and memory. Even when you think you got it, you can easily guess wrong. Crows can make then themselves look smaller when tucked in. You train yourself to remember a size and shape at a certain yardage, say 35 yards. When that same image becomes smaller at 35 yards, you will add yardage in your mind in an instant. Lots of guys will call it a 50 yd plus shot. Most people I believe over estimate distance including myself, especially on those straight up tall birds.
So what ever shot size you like and what ever distance your comfortable shooting at, just harvest a butt lot of crows.
Shooting crows with the double is like shooting deer with my bow instead of a rifle. For some of us, it isn't the number of crows killed, but the hunt itself. I'm sure it sounds corny as hell to some of you, but I like the nostalgia of holding and shooting the old double, (it was made in 1927) and killing crows and rabbits with it. I like to think that my Grandfathers are smiling down on me every time I hunt with my Lefever.
^^^Post of the Week^^^
Shoot them with a Howitzer if you wish or throw a damnable rolling pin at them.
I'll bet that 7/8 ounce load of 5's patterns way better than you think. Less crushing and less bore scrub especially out of 12ga plus the physics of heavier pellets paterning tighter could lead to a deadly combination. A while back I posted a photo of a 40 yard pattern from a 20ga using #6 on a crow silouette, 15 hits from a very light load.
As far as speed, speed ruins patterns but you don't need speed when using pellets with a greater mass, the lower velocity in turn contributes to a denser pattern. For me I use 1 1/8 ounce loads of 6 at 1145 fps from a 12ga (standard target load weight and velocity) and 1 1/4 ounce load of 6 at 1170 fps from the 2 7/8" or Short Ten.
When armed with either load we can wreck 'em close and we can reach out and stone the far and tall ones with surety and authority that can't be equaled by target size shot.
As Greg has pointed out and confirmed a crow hunter who reloads and substitutes 6 shot for 7.5 or 8 has nothing to lose and everything to gain in performance on the target.
Yea, but i can put 25+ in a 10" circle all day long using my handloads of 1.25 oz #7.5 at 1400 fps.........
at what distance? and 25 hits with 7 1/2 or 5 hits with bigger shot, dead is dead! but with 5's and 6s 1yd to 65 yds dead is dead, why limit your self, why not load 1 1/2 oz 7 1/2 and get even more hits. 10gacs
35 yards...............I have killed crows at 50 yards with that load, I am not shooting if they are farther, they will eventually get cloder...........I have tried a lot of different loads, and that patterns by far the bes of them........I also said I have good luck with a 1 3/8 load too.....
Regardless of how fine, how well chokes, how figured the wood is, what gauge it is, how wonderful your reloads are.... double have one serious flaw. They only go... Bang....Bang... not ideal for multiple incoming targets!!
! Whole point of this site is to pass off useful info to both seasoned vets as well as newcomers to the sport as well. Suggesting someone load and shoot 7/8 th ounce "roll-yer-owns" of 5 shot at crows would be like teaching someone to drive an auto at NASCAR
LOL 10qacs
