Crow Busters Forum

M12Shooter · Guru

Judging Distance Pictures

8fishermen · Guru

Here are some pics I took this afternoon between hunts. We often talk about how difficult it is to judge distance with birds on the wing so I thought I would try to take a few pics for scale.

Fish crow and American crow

This is a 200' tape measure with 5 gallon buckets ever 10 yards out to 70 yards. My son is standing at the 70 yard mark. I am on top of a 8' ladder taking the pics.

Fish Crows. The first one is at 20 yards. Last kid at 60.

American Crows

Fish and American side by side

It is hard to get sense of scale with a pic but you can have a guess at it with the 5 gallon buckets. Look at the pics then pace off distances and use a 5 gallon bucket for reference.

BTW. These are not all my children. I have one more! biggrin

60 yards is a long way.

8fishermen · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
Yes a true 60 yard shot is a long shot. Interesting and somewhat complex comparative and study there 8. How did you get your kids to stay put for that long!
Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Saturday 19th of January 2013 11:33:39 PM

Ted,

I still had the gun! biggrin

Bob · Guru

Greg,

Nobody can say you don't try.

Here are some common crows in flight at differen't yardages.

Bob A.

8fishermen · Guru

Bob wrote:
Greg,

Nobody can say you don't try.

Here are some common crows in flight at differen't yardages.

Bob A.

"Nobody can say you don't try."

LOL

"Here are some common crows in flight at differen't yardages."

Any Idea on what those yardages may be?

nykilla · Member

Being new to this forum all these birds were killed with #8 shot?

Bob · Guru

Photo # 1. Almost point blank approx. 18 yards.

Photo # 2. 15 to 18 yards.

Photo # 3. Approx. 22 yards.

Photo # 4. Approx. 25 yards.

Photo # 5. 22 to 25 yards.

Photo # 6. 30 yards.

Photo # 7. 18 to 20 yards.

Photo # 8. 25 to 27 yards.

Photo # 9. Approx. 22 yards.

Photo # 10. the close ones.... 22 to 25 yards.

This is my style of crow hunting where you can get them in close and score on multiple kills.

This ought to add a differen't perspective Greg.

Talk to you soon.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

Nykilla,

7 1/2's & 8's in a trap load.

Bob A.

nykilla · Member

Being new, all these rats were shot with#8's?

8fishermen · Guru

Bob,

Pics 7 and 9 looks like they are missing some important nuts and bolts. Looks like the landing gear has failed and the fuselage is no longer air tight!

8fishermen · Guru

nykilla wrote:
Being new, all these rats were shot with#8's?

# 8's? Trying to start something?? biggrin

Welcome to the forum.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

...and when anyone tries #6 shot loaded in place of #7.5 they will find the shell becomes a more deadly at longer range. Shot size does make a difference at longer range. As we have all read some on here have tried larger shot, they found out it did work better and they had the courage to say so.

Just like the cereal, "try it, you'll like it".

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 20th of January 2013 06:08:28 PM

Mainehunt · Guru

Nykilla, Welcome to the forum! My advice, never, NEVER, mention shot size. Because whatever subject your post was about will get flushed down the toilet an a giant pissing match will take over..........hahahaaa. don't believe it? Try it.........NO, don't try it, just take my word for it. Kev

8fishermen · Guru

Mainehunt wrote:
Nykilla, Welcome to the forum! My advice, never, NEVER, mention shot size. Because whatever subject your post was about will get flushed down the toilet an a giant pissing match will take over..........hahahaaa. don't believe it? Try it.........NO, don't try it, just take my word for it. Kev

Kev,

You know we would not do that! biggrin

Mike27 · Senior Member

7 1/2

nhcrowshooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter · Guru

"You will need shotgun shells in #6 or #5 shot. Please no 7 1/2
or 8 shot as these are too light for shots past 40 yards."

http://www.thecrowroost.com/Crow_Shoots.htm#TXTOBJ7D0113F1A36B41

8fishermen · Guru

Don't make me pull this bus over and spank all of you!! biggrin

Play nice.

M12Shooter · Guru

A new crow shooter or any other staring out in shotgun sports should focus on good cammo, cover, scouting, location, wind, calling, etc... and getting quarry in as tight as possible. Further, proper shooting technique, gun mount, follow through and the like are far more important than fretting about shot size, patterns and down range retained energy.

I read on this site and others of shooters claiming the shell they shoot at birds is inadequate because feathers are "flying" off birds and they are not falling. Any shotgun shooter that can actually see feathers falling off a bird he has just shot at is IMO guilty of poor technique. Raising ones head too soon, poor follow...basic poor shooting technique 101. Blaming ammo is not a solution for the aforementioned.

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
A new crow shooter or any other staring out in shotgun sports should focus on good cammo, cover, scouting, location, wind, calling, etc... and getting quarry in as tight as possible. Further, proper shooting technique, gun mount, follow through and the like are far more important than fretting about shot size, patterns and down range retained energy.

I read on this site and others of shooters claiming the shell they shoot at birds is inadequate because feathers are "flying" off birds and they are not falling. Any shotgun shooter that can actually see feathers falling off a bird he has just shot at is IMO guilty of poor technique. Raising ones head too soon, poor follow...basic poor shooting technique 101. Blaming ammo is not a solution for the aforementioned.

Ted

Not everyone is a new crow shooter.

M12Shooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
M12Shooter wrote:
A new crow shooter or any other staring out in shotgun sports should focus on good cammo, cover, scouting, location, wind, calling, etc... and getting quarry in as tight as possible. Further, proper shooting technique, gun mount, follow through and the like are far more important than fretting about shot size, patterns and down range retained energy.

I read on this site and others of shooters claiming the shell they shoot at birds is inadequate because feathers are "flying" off birds and they are not falling. Any shotgun shooter that can actually see feathers falling off a bird he has just shot at is IMO guilty of poor technique. Raising ones head too soon, poor follow...basic poor shooting technique 101. Blaming ammo is not a solution for the aforementioned.

Ted
Not everyone is a new crow shooter.

...and it would be safe to assume the lions share of "seasoned" shotgunners have not developed proper shooting technique.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
...and it would be safe to assume the lions share of "seasoned" shotgunners have not developed proper shooting technique.

....don't know about a lion's share or not but I do know a person who is a good wing shot and good judge of distance will do better using larger shot than 7.5 on the crows out beyond 35 yds and we all get a chance at such presentations.

If folks need to work on the shooting technique that is something to do in the off season at a skeet and sporting clay range, very helpful if one can get instruction from accomplished shooter on the range as well.

Bob · Guru

I say shoot the shot size you feel confident with.

I have no problem whats so ever killing crows with a trap load in 7 1/2's past 40 yards. Dick my partner used a range finder this season on high birds where you could get set for them to use that range finder. Many birds were killed stone dead between 47 to 55 yards. If you don't put the shot on the mark it makes little difference what you shoot.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:

I read on this site and others of shooters claiming the shell they shoot at birds is inadequate because feathers are "flying" off birds and they are not falling. Any shotgun shooter that can actually see feathers falling off a bird he has just shot at is IMO guilty of poor technique. Raising ones head too soon, poor follow...basic poor shooting technique 101. Blaming ammo is not a solution for the aforementioned.

Ted

Last season I was using factory loads of 1 &1/8 ounce loads of 7&1/2 and my buddy and I could see the shot hitting the crows and feathers coming off but many didn't fall. To be fair, they were flying higher than normal that day and were not decoying well. However he had some of his reloads, they were 7/8 ounce loads of #5 shot. We killed many more that day using those lighter loads of the 5 shot.

Ted, do you think Kev's technique changed as soon as he started shooting those 7/8 ounce of 5's? Hmmmmm???? A good example, same shooter, same day same set up, bigger shot better performance.

Bob · Guru

This issue will never be resolved because people shoot what they feel does the best job for them. To keep whipping this dead horse is quite pointless and very boring to say the least!

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

....well, I have to agree and don't feel "Kev's shooting technique would have progressed so rapidly IF he is infact guilty of poor technique. Further, it's great to see a new "go-to" crow load developed for all to share as I feel this is what the Crow Busters forum is all about
But, truthfully, patterning for long range shotgunning starts at 50 yards. I would love to assemble some 7/8th ounce loads of 5 shot and do some patterning of my own. Only catch is that here in Western Canada it is presently 20 below zero with knee deep snow-quite impractical to attempt such
Have to leave that load for a more temperate time of the year. Further, I am quite used to loading 7/8th ounce 12 gauge loads. I fire thousands of these at clays, 5 stand and 16 yard trap each year! STS or Gun Club hull/7/8 oz. #7 1/2 or 8 shot/CB1100-12 wad pushed by 18.5 grains of good old Red Dot. Absolutely smashes the clays
Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob wrote:
This issue will never be resolved because people shoot what they feel does the best job for them. To keep whipping this dead horse is quite pointless and very boring to say the least!

Bob A.

It's not feelings, it's physics/ballistics, once a crow hunter who has been using target size shot tries some #6 or #5 they will see a perceptible and measurable difference in performance at 35 yards and beyond. More dead folds, fewer birds leaving after feathers pulled etc. To argue target size shot is just as effective at longer range is silly because it is not, even to the most casual crow shooter. To me when anyone tries to argue 7.5 and 8 will kill equally shot to shot at longer range is kind of foolish, because once people try and see for themselves they may recall what you said and think to themselves the emperor has no clothes. You can argue it's convenient and economical, you can argue that it works well in your situation, but it's ballistically inferior to the larger shot for crow hunting overall.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:

....well, I have to agree and don't feel "Kev's shooting technique would have progressed so rapidly IF he is infact guilty of poor technique. Further, it's great to see a new "go-to" crow load developed for all to share as I feel this is what the Crow Busters forum is all about
But, truthfully, patterning for long range shotgunning starts at 50 yards. I would love to assemble some 7/8th ounce loads of 5 shot and do some patterning of my own. Only catch is that here in Western Canada it is presently 20 below zero with knee deep snow-quite impractical to attempt such
Have to leave that load for a more temperate time of the year. Further, I am quite used to loading 7/8th ounce 12 gauge loads. I fire thousands of these at clays, 5 stand and 16 yard trap each year! STS or Gun Club hull/7/8 oz. #7 1/2 or 8 shot/CB1100-12 wad pushed by 18.5 grains of good old Red Dot. Absolutely smashes the clays
Ted

Ted, I started using 12ga 7/8 ounce of #8 for skeet, sporting clays and 16yd trap a few years ago and I have never looked back. I use AA hulls, 7/8 ounce of magnum 8's in a Claybuster pink wad pushed by 17.5 grains of Red Dot and Fiochhi primer. It just crushes the clays and is very easy on old guns and old shoulders. It also stretches a bag of shot a long way. I can't believe how much lead a wasted over the years shooting 1 1/8 ounce at clays.

Bob · Guru

Like I said very boring!

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
M12Shooter wrote:

....well, I have to agree and don't feel "Kev's shooting technique would have progressed so rapidly IF he is infact guilty of poor technique. Further, it's great to see a new "go-to" crow load developed for all to share as I feel this is what the Crow Busters forum is all about
But, truthfully, patterning for long range shotgunning starts at 50 yards. I would love to assemble some 7/8th ounce loads of 5 shot and do some patterning of my own. Only catch is that here in Western Canada it is presently 20 below zero with knee deep snow-quite impractical to attempt such
Have to leave that load for a more temperate time of the year. Further, I am quite used to loading 7/8th ounce 12 gauge loads. I fire thousands of these at clays, 5 stand and 16 yard trap each year! STS or Gun Club hull/7/8 oz. #7 1/2 or 8 shot/CB1100-12 wad pushed by 18.5 grains of good old Red Dot. Absolutely smashes the clays
Ted

Ted, I started using 12ga 7/8 ounce of #8 for skeet, sporting clays and 16yd trap a few years ago and I have never looked back. I use AA hulls, 7/8 ounce of magnum 8's in a Claybuster pink wad pushed by 17.5 grains of Red Dot and Fiochhi primer. It just crushes the clays and is very easy on old guns and old shoulders. It also stretches a bag of shot a long way. I can't believe how much lead a wasted over the years shooting 1 1/8 ounce at clays.

10-4, I too switched to 7/8th ounce loads about 5 years ago when I first started shooting "bunker" or International trap. Very challenging game, makes 16 yard ATA feel like a slow motion game. IMO with the currrent price of lead shot being what it is, 7/8 12 gauge loads are the only loads worth home rolling when I can buy flats of 1 1/8 oz shells for 55 bucks. Further, I too have found the WWAA HS hulls make a better 7/8 load as AA hulls have a slightly smaller case capacity making for a better crimp. Cheers;

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Ted you are fortunate to have an International/Bunker trap facility anywhere close to you. I think the nearest one to me is 5 hours drive each way. I would love to try it. ATA shooter by and large want soft targets. I remember some 20 years ago when we were still using Winchester traps and trap boys the ATA mandated 3 hole targets. Everyone was complaining, funny thing though at the end of the first year on that setting my average was higher. My theory, tougher targets make you a better shoot if you stick with it.

Lone Star Phil · Senior Member

Eight:

Great field exercise!! And an outstanding experience for the kids! Thank you for sharing.

Phil

Mainehunt · Guru

Greg,

Thank you for taking the time to snap those photos.

Kev

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

Bob wrote:
The reason it's boring is because it's the samo samo all the time. It's like a bad movie put on a loup and it feels like you are listning to it over and over again. It has run it's course a long time ago, you are just bored to death so you keep re-hashing it until the membership wants to slit it's wrists!

Bob A.

well Bob, i don't think i could do that wright , let me see use a 6 inch knife or a 7 1/2 inch one. i think the 6 inch one would work better

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Tuesday 22nd of January 2013 11:18:30 PM

M12Shooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Ted you are fortunate to have an International/Bunker trap facility anywhere close to you. I think the nearest one to me is 5 hours drive each way. I would love to try it. ATA shooter by and large want soft targets. I remember some 20 years ago when we were still using Winchester traps and trap boys the ATA mandated 3 hole targets. Everyone was complaining, funny thing though at the end of the first year on that setting my average was higher. My theory, tougher targets make you a better shoot if you stick with it.

ATA is a fun sport, kind of like tossing a softball around with friends. I shoot ATA every week during the spring, summer and fall and enjoy it. International is very challenging to say the least biggrin . Perfect scores are almost never had. I shot bunker this past summer with a fellow that had just come back from competing in Italy. He shot at a range in the same location where Beretta has its Italian manufacturing facility. He said it was humbling to compete with 500 other shooters from around the world. He was breaking 20-21 birds average I would say, many on the second shot. I usually score around 13 or 14 which is "apparently" very good for a novice If you ever get a chance to shoot bunker then go for it. I almost bet you won't even see the first bird you call for! biggrin

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Yet another recommendation for larger shot on crows. Further supports Kevin's observation.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

Bob wrote:
Like I said very boring!

Bob A.

than don't read the post!! i don't read alot of your stuff because i find it boring too, just like the same olds pics time and time again. maybe some pics from this century would be nicer to look at. 10gacs. PS. oh and i find this very interesting how people TRY differnt shot size and find out that it DOES work better for them

M12Shooter · Guru

10gacrowshooter wrote:
Bob wrote:
Like I said very boring!

Bob A.
than don't read the post!! i don't read alot of your stuff because i find it boring too, just like the same olds pics time and time again. maybe some pics from this century would be nicer to look at. 10gacs. PS. oh and i find this very interesting how people TRY differnt shot size and find out that it DOES work better for them

I was somewhat under the assumption we were all over with the "back and forth" shot size dispute pertaining to this thread. Kind of went on to trap, loads for, etc... Guess I was wrong cry . I will no longer post in this thread or any other pertaining to. Thanks for your input biggrin

Ted

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

M12Shooter wrote:
10gacrowshooter wrote:
Bob wrote:
Like I said very boring!

Bob A.
than don't read the post!! i don't read alot of your stuff because i find it boring too, just like the same olds pics time and time again. maybe some pics from this century would be nicer to look at. 10gacs. PS. oh and i find this very interesting how people TRY differnt shot size and find out that it DOES work better for them
I was somewhat under the assumption we were all over with the "back and forth" shot size dispute pertaining to this thread. Kind of went on to trap, loads for, etc... Guess I was wrong. I will no longer post in this thread or any other pertaining to. Thanks for your input
Ted

well i am sorry to hear that , i do like reading your post, 10gacs PS i just didn't think some had to post how boring it was, he should have just move on and kept it to him self., some people find this very interesting to read and learn from,

Bob · Guru

The reason it's boring is because it's the samo samo all the time. It's like a bad movie put on a loup and it feels like you are listning to it over and over again. It has run it's course a long time ago, you are just bored to death so you keep re-hashing it until the membership wants to slit it's wrists!

Bob A.

nykilla · Member

after reading 53 forum pages this dog has been beat down bad!!!!!

Bob · Guru

NYKilla,

You can say that again Killa.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
nhcrowshooter wrote:
Ted you are fortunate to have an International/Bunker trap facility anywhere close to you. I think the nearest one to me is 5 hours drive each way. I would love to try it. ATA shooter by and large want soft targets. I remember some 20 years ago when we were still using Winchester traps and trap boys the ATA mandated 3 hole targets. Everyone was complaining, funny thing though at the end of the first year on that setting my average was higher. My theory, tougher targets make you a better shoot if you stick with it.
ATA is a fun sport, kind of like tossing a softball around with friends. I shoot ATA every week during the spring, summer and fall and enjoy it. International is very challenging to say the least. Perfect scores are almost never had. I shot bunker this past summer with a fellow that had just come back from competing in Italy. He shot at a range in the same location where Beretta has its Italian manufacturing facility. He said it was humbling to compete with 500 other shooters from around the world. He was breaking 20-21 birds average I would say, many on the second shot. I usually score around 13 or 14 which is "apparently" very good for a novice If you ever get a chance to shoot bunker then go for it. I almost bet you won't even see the first bird you call for!
Ted

Ted

Ted you seem to be a pretty devoted Winchester model 12 shooter. Do you have a trap model that you use or used in ATA shoots? 40 to 50 years ago they were one of "the" trap guns on the line. I have seen two shooters who used them on doubles and would have been impossible to shoot a 2nd shot faster then those two men could with their pumps. One of them is now an All-American Senior Vet and his 80's, he is still one of the contenders in his state but he went to K80 decades ago. Oh and the Model 12 Heavy Duck with the solid rib is of course legendary, a gun I have never owned but toyed with the idea until steel shot was mandated for waterfowling.

Mainehunt · Guru

I grew up in northern Ohio and my friend shot on his high school skeleton and trap team. This was in 1980. All the rich boys had over and unders. Chuck had an old model 12. They literally laughed at him the first day he showed up for practice with that old pump. Then he went on to win it all that year. :) Kev