Crow Busters Forum

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: England Bans Crow and Pigeon Hunting


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1419
Date:
England Bans Crow and Pigeon Hunting
Permalink  
 


Big and not so good things happening on the other side of the Atlantic.  The anti-hunting movement grows in strength every year. 

 

Breaking: England bans pigeon and crow shooting

The Government has bowed to Chris Packham and is banning most pigeon, crow, gull and Canada goose shooting in England.

Natural England – the Government agency responsible – is “revoking three general licences for controlling certain wild birds as of Thursday 25 April 2019,” says the Government in a statement. It adds: “These licences (GL 04/05/06) cover 16 species of birds including several members of the crow family, Canada goose, some gulls and pigeons.”

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have not reacted yet (link to Welsh Natural Resources pagelink to DAERA Northern Ireland pagelink to Scottish Natural Heritage page)

Chris Packham crowdfunded and launched a legal challenge called Wild Justice to the way the licences are issued, arguing that shooters are not acting lawfully. Government lawyers appear to have folded and let Packham have his way.

The three licences subject to the legal challenge cover 16 bird species, including several members of the crow family (crows, magpies, rooks, jackdaws and jays), feral and wood pigeon and number of invasive non-native species (such as Canada goose).

The specific licences:

  • General licence GL04: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to prevent serious damage or disease
  • General licence GL05: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to preserve public health or public safety
  • General licence GL06: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to conserve wild birds or flora or fauna

Details are sketchy. They do not appear to include licences to protect crops, though GL04 specifically includes crop protection. They probably do cover Larsen traps.

Taken by surprise by the decision, Natural England says it is “working at pace to put in place over the next few weeks alternative measures to allow lawful control of these bird species to continue where necessary”.

In the meantime, and until new licences are issued, anyone needing to control one of 16 bird species where there is no reasonable non-lethal alternative will need to apply for an individual licence in the same way they apply for licences to control birds such as cormorants and ravens. These licences take weeks to obtain and are seldom given out – though Natural England reassures shooters: “If people need to take action in the meantime they will need to apply for an individual licence, using a simplified process which will be available on gov.uk from 25 April.”

Natural England’s interim chief executive Marian Spain says: “We recognise this change will cause disruption for some people, but we are working hard to ensure it is kept to a minimum.

“We will bring forward interim measures as quickly as possible as the first stage of our planned review of the licences. We want to make sure our licensing system is robust and proportionate, taking into account the needs of wildlife and people.”

Shooters across the UK have reacted angrily.

Reaction from viewers on Fieldsports News’ Facebook page

General licences were introduced in the 1980s as a government fudge to allow the legal control of pest bird species, after the government accidentally banned all bird shooting when it signed up to the 1979 EC Birds Directive. They allow the ban to stay but grant ‘general’ licences to all citizens in England and then Wales with permission to shoot pest birds. The Tory government of the day told shooters that the licences would be renewed automatically every year and nothing would change. In the early 2000s, the Labour government looked at revoking them as a back-door to banning birdshooting – but it tracked back from that position. Now BBC presenter and animal rights activist Chris Packham has succeeded where anti-shooting politicians failed and has forced a ban with a simple legal letter.

Natural England says it is working on new licences to cover the three general licences that the Government lawyers have revoked. Natural England says it is “undertaking new licensing assessments to support lethal control of certain birds in defined situations, such as to prevent serious damage to livestock from carrion crow and to preserve public health and safety from the impacts of feral pigeons. It intends to start issuing these licences on gov.uk from the week commencing 29 April when more details will be available.”

 

 

https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/generallicences/?fbclid=IwAR2aKrE6rB1es_Xa6tXeyzPHCehXykP8FjivAhx5Whkii-H7C6869BluCoM

 




 



-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 24th of April 2019 09:06:11 AM

__________________

Professor, NH Crow Hunting Academy

Secret Hunting Spots  


 



Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yes Chris Packham and wild justice challenged the general licence
twitter.com/i/web/status/1106600329620176897
and The New chairman of natural England Tony Juniper Who had been in his New Position only mins when he introduced ban,
twitter.com/TonyJuniper%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1120742604197564418&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.pigeonwatch.co.uk%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dsystem%26controller%3Dembed%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FTonyJuniper%2Fstatus%2F1120742604197564418
Tony Juniper CBE who is a friend of the earth amongst other tree huger activities.his bio here
www.tonyjuniper.com/about

Tony Juniper Decided Natural England were on rocky ground the way the general licence is working no Farmers Pres responce . www.fwi.co.uk/arable/crop-management/pests/general-licence-to-shoot-wood-pigeons-to-be-revoked

The BASC....British association for Shooting and conservations response
www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/british-association-for-shooting-and-conservation-basc/article/basc-responds-to-revocation-of-general-licences

A petition to sack packam from BBC tv here.
www.change.org/p/bbc-bbc-to-sack-chris-packham

SO its all fun here in jolly old England 24 hours latter there is turmoil, All because a anti shooting media whore who fronts a anti shooting org thinly desguised as caring for wild life front 35K for a court case and cost Farming and comerse / Industry Millions in just 24 hours the knock on effect is massive . and Meanwile the Pigeon population is protected and Crows other corvids go unchecked from tomorrow.
Licences can be individualy applied for but will only be issued in some cases and where all other non lethal means have been employed to the sattisfaction of Natural England the issueing ORG.
You need to be registered five days prior to application, and over a million applications will mean huge delays Natural england are funded AFAIK By DEFRA
www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs
And AFAIK money is in short supply in Natural England.
www.gov.uk/government/organisations/natural-england

WE are expecting a long slow battle here and i do not feel Shooters or the Environment / finances of the country will fare well in any out come.
All we can do is hope for some reason and common sense to prevail.
But with the wild justice involved.
twitter.com/WildJustice_org%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Who knows where it will all end.

BASC curent coments here.

twitter.com/BASCnews%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

How Chris packhan and his wild justice did it a little info here.

markavery.info/2019/04/24/wild-justices-legal-challenge-how-the-case-progressed/

And the current pres angle .

www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/24/woodpigeons-and-crows-can-no-longer-be-freely-killed-in-england


Sorry for the million links but this will put you in the picture exactly how it is at this moment in time 2 30 in the afternoon here.24 april 2019 a sad day for British wildlife
and yet invoked ban in the name of wild justice its a travesty and i can only hope the government sees sense here and sorts this mess out.
Appologise no spell checking punctuation nothing. i am busy trying to put together a General licence application for our Wildfowling club so as we can keep taking crows on out grounds. in a word. NIGHTMARE!
.








__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1671
Date:
Permalink  
 

Be thankful we live in the USA!


__________________
Bob Aronsohn


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

We are still in the midst of all this nonsense, The BASC are doing what they can as are the gamekeepers orgs, Natural England issued a Carrion Crow Licence AFAIK last night. www.gov.uk/government/publications/carrion-crows-licence-to-kill-or-take-them-gl26
Looks like individual bird species.
hoodies and others safe at moment.
youtu.be/MuSenAJnFq8

New Pigeon and others GLs due out Monday they say.
This is annoying.

 

https://youtu.be/i5R5Tv78g5o



-- Edited by GEORDIE TOM on Saturday 27th of April 2019 05:16:10 PM

__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

BASC issued this 12 hours ago. This whole situation as got beyond stupid, its spring here Song birds are breeding its lambing time, exactly what they think they are doing taking away lethal control right now is beyond reasoning.
The very people who launched this challenge to the general licence , are so out of touch with the real world its ridiculous.
Right now too!
they could not have picked a worse time of year, Below is BASCs response to the new licence which as BASCs legal team see it is. “not fit for purpose”


New general licence “not fit for purpose”, BASC tells NE

Apr 27, 2019

BASC chairman Peter Glenser QC has said the drafting of the new general licence issued by Natural England has been “shoddy and hurried” and the document is “not fit for purpose”.

BASC’s experts have been analysing the 11-page document and its supporting information since it was released by Natural England on Friday night.

BASC chief executive Ian Bell outlined his concerns around the failings in the new licence in a phone call to Natural England on Saturday afternoon.

Mr Glenser said: “We have been in contact with other leading rural organisations during Saturday and all our experts have been working very quickly to analyse the licence so that we could give some reassurances to the rural community.

“Having done that work, we are not able to give those assurances and we have told Natural England exactly that. We have to say that the shambles is continuing in the aftermath of Natural England’s appalling decision to withdraw the three original general licences without warning or consultation on Tuesday.

“Some of the content of the new licence for controlling carrion crows is, quite frankly, bizarre and we believe the licence in its current form is unworkable. We have real fears for the other licences which have yet to be released.”

Mr Bell said: “When I spoke to Natural England directly today I demanded they reintroduce the 2019 general licences that they took away without consultation. There is no time to delay in this, the rural community is desperate for answers and reassurance.”



__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation (NGO) has condemned a new General Licence for controlling crows in England as “hurried, botched and completely unfit for purpose.”

The new licence (GL 26, for killing crows to protect livestock including kept gamebirds), was issued by Natural England (NE) last night, just two days after they had revoked earlier General Licences, thereby temporarily making crows a fully protected species throughout England.

Announcing the replacement licence, NE’s Interim Chief Executive, Marian Spain said it would bring “peace of mind” to those who needed to control crows. But urgent analysis by the NGO has found the new 11-page licence to be far more restrictive than the 5-page licence it replaces.

The additional restrictions include:

The new licence only allows crows to be killed “as a last resort.”
It allows someone to kill crows only if they have previously tried non-lethal ways of solving the problems the crows are causing.
It prevents someone from destroying a crow’s nest when it is not in use.
It prevents the use of some types of cage traps.
It restricts the control of crows during their breeding season.
It is invalid in conservation areas such as SSSIs unless a further licence is obtained from NE.
And it requests users to “exercise restraint” when shooting or scaring crows in periods of severe weather.

It took the NGO just moments to spot many serious flaws in the new licence, which was rushed out without any consultation, with no chance given to suggest changes.

Liam Bell, the NGO Chairman, said: “NE’s new crow licence is hurried, botched and completely unfit for purpose. NE must go back to the drawing board and we have offered our help in drafting a replacement licence that is workable and clear. That will take time, however, and vulnerable young gamebirds, lambs and other livestock cannot be left this spring without protection from crows.

“In the meantime, therefore, the NGO has asked NE for the immediate re-introduction of the old General Licences that were revoked last Thursday, with additional legal safeguards to ensure that gamekeepers and others who control crows and other problem birds can do so without risk of prosecution.”

 

BASC joins other rural organisations to write to Michael Gove


BASC has joined other rural organisations in writing to environment secretary Michael Gove to demand an investigation into Natural England’s handling of the general licensing “disaster”.

BASC chief executive Ian Bell is joint signatory of the letter alongside the National Farmers Union, the Countryside Alliance, CLA, The Game and Wildlife Countryside Trust, National Farmers Union, Moorland Association, National Gamekeepers Organisation and Game Farmers Association.

The letter says: “As Secretary of State for the Department to which NE is contracted as the current licensing authority, you are asked to undertake a full investigation as to who made what decisions, when, and why. Your Department needs to determine what changes may be necessary going forward, to ensure this sort of disaster is never repeated.”

Mr Bell said: “The rural organisations have united to tell the Secretary of State that this fiasco is simply unacceptable. The shooting and farming community has been failed and Mr Gove has to step in to take decisive action”.

Click here to read the letter in full: https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Joint-Letter-to-Gove-from-SLC-Member-Organisations.pdf

ENDS



-- Edited by GEORDIE TOM on Sunday 28th of April 2019 02:32:08 PM

__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

This is the oppositions standpoint from their webWild Justice

Wild Justice, a not-for-profit company set up by Chris Packham, author, blogger and campaigner Dr Mark Avery and blogger, researcher and wildlife campaigner Dr Ruth Tingay is launched on Wednesday 13 February.

Wild Justice exists to take legal cases on behalf of wildlife against public bodies where they are failing to protect species and/or habitats.

Wild Justice is working with legal teams in England and Scotland. Legal action will be funded by public donations and crowdfunding appeals.

Chris said ‘Wild Justice. Because the wild needs justice more than ever before. The pressures wrought upon our wildlife have reached a crisis point and this is an essential response. The message is clear . . . if you are breaking the law, if the law is weak, if the law is flawed – we are coming for you. Peacefully, democratically and legally. Our simple premise is to work with the laws we’ve got to seek real justice for our wildlife, to reform, refine or renew those laws we have to ensure that justice can be properly realised. Our wildlife has been abused, has been suffering, exploited or destroyed by criminals for too long. Well, no longer. Wild Justice will at last be the voice of those victims and it will be heard . . . and justice will be served.’

Mark Avery said ‘Wild Justice will take on public bodies to get a better deal for wildlife. It’s a shame that we have to do this but we have little confidence that statutory bodies are fulfilling their functions properly. We aim to hold their feet to the fire in court. I’m reminded of what the great American environmental campaigner, Ansel Adams said ‘It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment’.’

Ruth Tingay said ‘I know many people who despair about what’s happening to our wildlife but who also feel powerless to help, typically because access to justice can be prohibitively expensive and a daunting arena. Wild Justice provides an opportunity for ordinary citizens to fight back on behalf of wildlife, collectively helping us to challenge poor decisions or flawed policies that threaten to harm our wildlife. With so many potential cases, the difficulty for us will be to decide which ones to take on first.’

Visit www.wildjustice.org.uk to find out more and follow @wildjustice_org on Twitter.

Notes:

Mark Avery has taken two legal challenges against Natural England in the past 12 months with solicitors Leigh Day. The first has already been won: Natural England signed an agreement with a grouse moor in West Yorkshire that involved a track being built across the grouse moor. Dr Avery claimed that the track was unlawful under the EU Habitats Directive and Natural England were forced to change their position and now oppose the track being built. The second challenge was a judicial review of a scheme to manage the broods of the threatened Hen Harrier on grouse moors – that case is awaiting judgment after three days of a hearing in the High Court.
Ruth Tingay co-led the 2018 legal challenge against Scottish Natural Heritage’s decision to licence the culling of ravens on grouse moors in Strathbraan, Perthshire; a challenge which attracted widespread public support and funding. The scientific justification for the licence was deemed “completely inadequate” and “seriously flawed” by SNH’s own scientific advisory committee, resulting in the licence holders voluntarily suspending the cull and SNH accepting that killing protected species “just to see what happens” was insufficient justification for authorising this and similar culls.
Wild Justice is considering several legal challenges along similar lines and will be announcing its first project in the next few weeks.
site.



__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

boba wrote:

Be thankful we live in the USA!


 Very true boba !  Just a thought here, i know this is not anything to do with crow busting over there, and the members here this effects will be very small if not just myself, So if you want me to stop posting updates as they happen i will .

  It is a terrible situation to find yourselves in, and its not getting any better. I / we here in  England ( it is just England Scotland and wales Ireland & IOM are unaffected) can only hope the government force the reinstatement of the old General licences . It is effecting the whole country, i am struggling to comprehend why natural england are taking this line of pushing for control at this stage.

In my opinion it is irresponsible to the extreme.

 

 



__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1368
Date:
Permalink  
 

The difference between Conservative and Liberal Left mindset towards wildlife management, firearms, hunting and the shooting sports is astounding. We have a young Liberal Prime Minister here in Canada and his fantasy government that will hopefully take a size 10 to the ass this fall during the Federal Election. All this is compounded when dealing with a Commonwealth country.

Ted

__________________

Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne



Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1671
Date:
Permalink  
 

Geordie, go ahead and keep us posted.

I have been following this on the internet.

Try to get as many folks involved as possible to oppose what has happened to the sportsman in your country. This includes firearm dealers, the folks that sell the bouncers for pigeon shooting and any retail stores that cater to the outdoorsman! Prince Charles likes to shoot driven birds so he would carry a lot of weight if he would step up for the shooters in you're country!

__________________
Bob Aronsohn


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yes the royals hunt and shoot, that includes the new generation. The money here hunts and shoots and its a revinue maker we are not too bad in this respect.
The problem as i see it is the politics here are in trouble, this Brexit thing weak Teresa May Michael Gove these people are just nobody’s who worked their way up by hook or by crook.
Not good for our case all our shooting organisation BASC can do is keep lobbying parliament on this and at some point they are going to be forced to act.
I think they are playing a waiting game at this moment in time hoping it all goes away, but i am sure they realise as they come under more and more pressure from more and more bodies, they will be starting to get worried.
At a stake holders meeting last night we had an RSPB Site manager (Royal Society for the protection of birds ) complaining about the timing of this action, Time of year breeding birds etc. He sounded quite concerned and i would go as far as to say agitated at one point, after the meeting in the truck on the way home the three lads i had with me all agreed we did not expect RSPB to be so upset by this. So we are perhaps underestimation just how much support we have from the rest of the country. I do hope so let me put it that way.

__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

youtu.be/nGAYNAP2qq8

__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

HELP! in fact PLEASE HELP! we are desperate.

We are a small country our entire land mass would fit easily in many of your individual states.
Add to this The most restrictive gun laws on the planet and we do not have many supporters here.

Could you all please think about any studies / research government advice on crows and figures and facts on damage and losses they can do, and any breeding advice , Other than on this site and in the links from it ? ?

Basically anything you can think of that we could present or use that might help our government see what a terrible mistake they are making.

Here is a press release from yesterday by our Main shooting organization BASC. Anything posted here i will pass on or you could pass it on directly to them if you like. here. basc.org.uk/about-basc/contact-us/

Here is their press release .The bare threats

BASC lays bare the threats posed by general licence chaos


The impact of ‘pest birds’ on public health and safety, aircraft security, crops, livestock and vulnerable, red-listed species is outlined in a briefing document published today by BASC.

The document will be sent to all MPs in the wake of Natural England’s decision last week to withdraw three general licences for the control of pest birds in England.

The document is also for members and the wider shooting and rural community to give the facts in one place to help challenge the myths and fake news posted online.

It is supported by an infographic which highlights headline facts.

• Pigeons and doves were responsible for 800 reported aircraft bird strikes or near misses in the most recent figures available, the document says. Crows were responsible for 300 and gulls more than 1,300. BASC estimates that without proper control, aircraft strikes or near misses from woodpigeon could be expected to increase by seven per cent per year.

• Concerns that major football, sporting and events stadia and arenas will not be able to operate within the terms of their safety certificates if pest controllers are unable to deal with pest birds such as pigeons.

• Damage caused to brassica, pea and oilseed crops in the UK by woodpigeon is estimated to cost £115 million annually and this species will have a devastating effect on farming if allowed to go unchecked.

• Up to 50 per cent of urban pigeons can carry the most common cause of food poisoning.


• Several examples are included which highlight the importance of corvid control on the breeding attempts of vulnerable, red-listed bird species.

BASC chairman Peter Glenser QC said: “The facts, the figures and the evidence speak for themselves. The chaos caused by Natural England’s decision runs much deeper than the countryside.

“Our briefing document shows it stands to affect people’s health, livelihoods and the environment and people’s day-to-day lives in cities and the countryside.

“Livelihoods could be lost, people will be out of pocket, livestock will be unprotected and conservation efforts will be in crisis.

“Our members and the wider shooting and rural community can use this document as a point of reference to deal with the misinformation that has been peddled in the last week since NE announced its appalling decision.”

The document can be read here: basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php

The infographic can be read here: basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php

ENDS .



-- Edited by GEORDIE TOM on Thursday 2nd of May 2019 09:14:54 AM

__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1671
Date:
Permalink  
 

Geordie,

If you want to send a message to these wankers have the farmers tell them what percentage of there peas, and beans will be lost due to not controlling the pigeon and crow population.

Another way to approach them is to mention the estimates of the pigeon population in Britain by the gents who do the bird counts; I have heard estimates of up to 10 to 12 million pigeons! Do the same for crows so you can prove they are hardly endangered.

Bob A.

__________________
Bob Aronsohn


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

Thanks Boba lots of shooters and non shooters here are putting in complaints in and everyone you meet seems bewildered by this news, its becoming a hot potato for Michael Gove and a comment on twitter and some on snap chat were today sugesting the government were pulling the plug on Natural England running the GLs. As here...www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/05/02/natural-england-stripped-responsibility-shooting-licences-according/

but this was quickly refuted by DEFRA here....deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/02/rebuttal-of-telegraph-claims-on-general-licensing-for-shooting/

Now i do not know what is going on, but it was allegedly all over snap chat and one souse said twitter well prior to the refutal . and if nothing has happened why are DEFRA name sudden in the mix. its a bit of a mystery.
Time will tell!

Below is a blog done by Paul Tout he is not a shooter but gave a good account here and worth reading. I was sent it in text form but there will be a link if you want to see the article online, or read any more.



Here is Paul touts blog . Text on GLs.

A blog mostly covering the biodiversity at the head of the Adriatic (NW Croatia, W Slovenia and NE Italy including Istria, the limestone Karst, the Italian lagoons as far as the Po Delta and the eastern Alps), occasionally wandering off into polemics involving politics, economics (ecotourism) and sociology where these affect the natural environment. Maybe some stuff too on linguistics, ethnicity and local dialects too if people seem interested.
My photo

Paul Tout
Long-term (1989 to date) Italian resident, originally from UK, I'm an ex-teacher, passionate naturalist and environmentalist who works as a wildlife tour-guide and translator.

View my complete profile
Wednesday, 1 May 2019
My limbic system battles it out with my frontal lobes in the General Licences fiasco.


News about English Nature’s (EN) decision towithdraw the various General Licences (GLs) regulating the killing of various wild bird species came minutes after I’d posted a tweet of the picture you see of three Carrion Crows hung on a barbed wire fence next to a public footpath and adjacent to the public open access land on Poyntington Down in Dorset, a place I like to wander about when I’m in UK and imagine what it would have been like to have been Gabriel Oak in Hardy’s Far from the Madding Crowd. It’s mostly sheep pasture and shooting with open grassland interspersed with patches of game cover with release pens in summer and the asphalt of the surrounding roads is splattered with the victims of collisions between pheasants and vehicles. I grew up ‘mooching’ (in the British sense) around the Green Belt of NE London in the 1970s and can remember seeing the occasional keeper’s gibbet there and on trips to Norfolk but I thought it was a habit that had died out, partly through the shame of those practicing it and partly from a desire not to attract attention and comment. Such behaviour is unhelpful, boastful and counterproductive.

One reason for maintaining the GLs as they were as I see it (with lax controls on the numerical control of a handful of problematic species with optimal conservation statuses or alien species) was that it set clear water between what used to be considered “pest” species (the old Schedule 2 species of the1967 Protection of Birds Act, a list later thankfully much reduced in subsequent revisions) such as Carrion Crow (CC), Magpie (MP) or Wood Pigeon (WP) and those that were decidedly not, such as all raptors and owls. What the elimination of GLs for “pest” species might do now (depending on how the new licences emerge) is lump these species in with other sometimes problematic species for which specific licences had to be applied for, such as Common Buzzard (CB), Tawny Owl (TO) and Raven (RA), all of which sometimes cause well-documented problems to certain legal economic activities and for which EN provides licences, generally with great parsimony. Why should CB, TO and RA now be treated any differently by EN when compared to CC, MP or WP when someone applies for a licence, with each case being treated on its merits? De facto, via this action, willingly or unwillingly, EN have abolished the “Premier League” of pest species with a low burden of proof on the need to control them, all of which are doing very well numerically.

I groaned inwardly when I saw NE’s announcement, knowing that it would set off a major diplomatic incident within an already divided nature conservation community with all sorts of bad behaviour on display. I wasn’t wrong. I steered clear of the various shooting and gamekeeping groups I follow on Facebook. Someone can only take so many misplaced apostrophes, so much bad grammar and spelling, so much freely-vented spleen and cut-n-paste copies of Chris Packham’s address. These groups are usually full of common sense, insight and interesting observations but I did follow the discussion in more refined forums.

By way of background, I struggled (and eventually failed) to obtain licences for corvid control in Grey Partridge projects I was working on in Italy in the late 1990s precisely for the same reasons that EN withdrew the UK’s GLs twenty years later, perhaps only a month or two prior to a Brexit that would see the UK no longer (necessarily) bound by the Birds’ Directive that was cited by Italy’s Istituto Nazionale per la Fauna Selvatica (now the Istituto Superiore per la Protezione e la Ricerca Ambientale), the ecological equivalent of EN in Italy and the body that withdrew (in fact re-wrote it out of existence) my Italian licence after one season.


Re. NE’s announcement and the timing. It couldn’t really have been any worse, could it? 30 years of living in Italy has made me a proficient student of dietrologia, literally the study of what’s behind (‘dietro’) things. This is a haven for conspiracy theorists but I’m not one of those, usually. Was it really a coincidence that NE’s announcement came on TonyJuniper’s (TJ) first day?

Juniper’s appointment as Chair of Natural England by Michael Gove was met with cheers and incredulity from most people in the nature conservation community and gasps of horror from the establishment. What a welcoming present, eh? I wonder who decided that? And precisely at the time when people involved in legal predator control require those licences … and that includes the RSPB and probably other conservation bodies too, not just gamekeepers and farmers. Through no fault of his own TJ now finds himself with a mountain to climb at least as far as the groups that were cynical or displeased at his appointment, and that includes some of the most powerful lobby groups in Britain. It would be interesting to know who took the decision to withdraw the General Licences and why they chose to do so now when the plaintiffs had sought a revision to be in place for 2020? “Sir Humphrey, was it you!?”

Re. ‘The plaintiffs’. Wild Justice Org. I find this a difficult section to write. I get the impression that the three main actors, Mark Avery (MA), Chris Packham (CP) and Ruth Tingay (RT) were surprised at the turn of events and have all sought to distance themselves somewhat from the plume of the fallout that their “victory” has left in its wake although their most recent statements suggest they are doubling down on their position. I struggle with that and they should feel free to deny that if I have misinterpreted them.

MA says (in his blog): “The Natural England decision to revoke the long-standing General Licences came out of the blue”. That’s as maybe but ultimately, and for whatever reason it was Wild Justice’s challenge of the GLs that set the chain of events in motion. CP (who has been on the receiving end of brutal death threats , which is a scandal in itself) says (quite rightly) in a tweet:

“Can I please ask why campaigning against 1) the illegal killing of raptors 2) illegal fox hunting 3) pesticides which are human carcinogens 4) poor animal husbandry and 5) a scientifically invalid badger cull makes me an ‘enemy’ of the countryside ? Just plain weird.”

… but in the end it was the revocation of the GLs that Chris facilitated via Wild Justice that really set things off when the “fire risk” was already very high following #ExtinctionRebellion’s highly successful show of strength in London around Easter.

So let’s look at the positions of a couple of individuals who are not at the forefront of the battles on either side but who perhaps find themselves in a difficult position. One is Mary Colwell (MC), the author of the lovely Curlew Moon said (in various articles):

“You couldn't have chosen a worse time to revoke the general license than this week really.”
“We completely welcome a general license review, it needs tightening and more rigour, but to time it with the peak start of laying is really terrible. It's caught us all by surprise.”
“Crows eat both the eggs and the young of curlews. Their eggs are quite large so they don't take them away but they intimidate the birds off the nest, smash the eggs up and eat them in situ.”
“If we had time to prepare, people could have applied for individual licenses, no one would have minded if it happened at a different time of year.”
“Curlews don't often re-lay if they lose a clutch. So we have lost a season and that's bad news for birds in such trouble.”

Nothing to quarrel with there from me. All facts. All true. No “opinion”. And Mary has an unimpeachable pedigree having walked 500 miles to raise money and awareness for the Curlew and, like me, has no interest in practicing field sports as far as I am aware.

Then there is Owen Williams (OW), a fantastically talented artist who probably knows as much about the Wood**** as anyone in Britain but is closer, politically, to the field sports wing of this argument and knows which end of a shotgun and a fishing rod to hold:

OW (on Facebook): “ There was one point in our debate that gave me a great insight into why we had such opposing views on the killing of one bird to save another. I had pointed out to Mark the killing of crows on grouse moors not only increased fledging success of curlew, lapwing and golden plover from 23% to 64%, but it wasn’t having a detrimental effect on the population status of crows. His reply was very revealing.

MA ‘Owen- 10,000 murders a year would make no difference to the human population (not if (it) was measured the way we measure bird populations) but I doubt you would say it was OK, Have a think about why you wouldn’t’.

OW: “I suddenly understood the nature of the gulf between us. He was asking me to accept a level of equivalence of a bird death and a human death. (My italics). I was looking at the subject of predator control objectively from a science perspective and he was introducing the highly subjective angle of how we should view birds.

“This made me realise why, however much we objectively point out scientific facts that the killing of predators on grouse moors gives threatened species like curlew and lapwing a fighting chance to avoid national extinction he still can’t accept the valuable work that keepers do for our biodiversity at no cost to the public purse. He is conflicted (my italics) between his instincts as a bird lover and his training as a scientist – preservationist v conservationist.

“What is frustrating is that Avery and Packham are accepted by the media and the British public as scientists. The public believes that what they say is pure and objective. In reality their views start with their high subjective view that a bird’s death has a high level of equivalence with a human death, they then go onto to dress their argument up with a coat of distorted science that enables them to tell the public and our policy makers such lies as our grouse moors are ‘Dead Burned and Barren’ when anyone with a pair of boots and the desire for a good walk would see that this was far from the truth.

My debates on the subject of grouse moors elsewhere on social media threw up a comment that professional ecologists now use the word "MAMBA" (miles and miles of bugger all) to describe our moors. If professional ecologist, despite their training to be objective, have bought the REVIVES ‘Dead Burned and Barren’ slogan, as promoted by their media representatives Packham and Avery, then we have to be very worried. Science and our policy-making has become infected with subjectivity and a lot is at risk if we allow this to continue.

Again I thank Mark Avery for revealing why the arguing of our science informed position has, thus far, had little effect.”

And here the dissonance between the brain’s limbic system and its frontal lobes is laid bare. Just to refresh your memory: the brain’s "primitive" limbic system regulates our emotions and controls various aspects such as anger, fear, anxiety, empathy, satisfaction and happiness while the "higher" frontal lobes (among other things) deal with cognitive functioning and deductions and exert a control over our behaviour and impulses.

Intellectually, however, many people in this argument seem to be finding themselves at odds with their deeper (limbic) selves. Conflicted. Our limbic systems are telling us that "killing crows" is ‘wrong’ and that we shouldn’t be doing it, while our frontal lobes, presented with the data, as set out by OW or MC or the Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust are telling us that “killing crows” (as a short-hand, my shorthand for the past and, to a lesser extent, the present style of land management across much of the uplands with good populations of rare breeding waders such as Curlew, Lapwing, and Golden Plover, Black Grouse, Capercaillie, Twite, Ring Ouzel and even Merlin) is precisely what we should be doing (and what, for example, the RSPB are/were doing on many of their reserves) if we want to avoid their imminent extinction in Britain and Ireland.

Although I am not interested in practicing field sports myself I think I have my limbic system well under control as far as this question is concerned. Some might say I am “emotionally blunted”. Whatever the case, Britain’s uplands and river valleys with breeding waders are the product of at least (an arbitrary, post-Industrial Revolution) 250 years of a social and economic system, that whether you view it as “just” or not, was what it was and is what it is. If you change it, modify it or abolish it, you will change, modify and in some cases "abolish" the flora and fauna associated with it.

I often imagine Cirl Buntings in Britain in a "Just William" haze with Spitfires in the sky, skinny kids running about and jam for tea. Why? Because they were widespread right up into the northern Midlands until the 1940s at a time of spring-sown cereals, a lack of herbicides, plenty of hedges and generalised predator control when the Spitfire represented the zenith of technological achievement. In an era of autumn cereals, Roundup® and the Tesla®, the RSPB is turning cartwheels to maintain and increase numbers of this beautiful bird (including the finding, collection, hatching and rearing in captivity under licence of first clutches for later release). Our populations of Curlew, Lapwing, and Golden Plover, Black Grouse, Capercaillie, Twite, Ring Ouzel and even (ground-nesting) Merlin are a product of their time and place. Of grouse moors and watermeadows, deerstalking and gamekeepers, ‘drowners’, ‘aftermath’ and Lammas. If we want to keep them and abolish many traditional land management systems then we are also going to have to ‘turn some cartwheels’ and that involves modified forms of many of these practices including generalist predator control. Abolishing (say) driven grouse shooting without a very good back-up plan risks knock-on effects that many can see. MA, CP and RT all know this. If they don’t they should. But do their financial supporters at Wild Justice? Perhaps not. Perhaps they choose not to? Perhaps they do but their own limbic systems (or desire to ‘belong’) override coherence with their frontal lobes? Perhaps they think that it’s a price worth paying, “a mere detail” in a much larger political struggle? (I am very aware here that there are modern practices on British grouse moors such as medication via grit and shortened burn cycles that the GWCT researched, developed and now recommend so spare me the 'whataboutery').

We hear a lot about rewilding of vast tracts of upland Britain. There are some successful proponents too, such as the Knepp Castle Estate which lies in that felicitous band close to London within which a farm shop might charge £15 - £20 for a kilo of organic pork sausages from uproariously happy range-reared pigs but what would re-wilding do to the UK’s populations of Curlew, Lapwing, and Golden Plover, Black Grouse, Capercaillie, Twite, Ring Ouzel, all a product of their time and place in history - human, geological and climatic? Rewilding is often put forward as a panacea to the problems caused by both excessive sheep grazing and grouse moors in the uplands. I live in an area where involuntary rewilding has taken place since the Second World War. Let’s look at that process and what it has entailed, the pluses and minuses on the biodiversity front.

Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy’s most north-eastern Region covers 8,000 km2. It borders Slovenia in the east, the Adriatic in the south, the Italian Region of Veneto in the west and Austria’s Carinthia Region in the north. It’s roughly 50% plains and low hills below 250m and 50% “uplands” (tetrads with some points above about 400m above sea level. The geology of the latter is often harsh. There are plenty of peaks above 2000m in the Julian and Carnic Alps. It's fairly rich by Italian standards but not atypical of Italy as a whole in the 21st century. According to Franco Musi in Foreste, Uomo, Economia nel Friuli Venezia Giulia (1990) in 1945 the Region had 800 km2 of forest - 10% - not far off what the UK has today (13%). Today that figure is approaching 50% “forest” cover, 4,000 km2, (ISTAT) that includes the heavy (often Hazel and Green Alder) scrub and secondary woodland that has developed since World War Two!

What could have produced such a dramatic change in the landscape in 75 years and what have the ecological effects been? One reason has been the switch from firewood to more convenient sources of home heating such as diesel or methane but the main cause has been rural depopulation and abandonment of marginal areas. Just taking a local mountain municipality at random, Preone in the Carnic Alps, famous for its late Triassic fossils, the population peaked at 947 people a century ago but is now fewer than 240 (2017, 25% of its peak) and dropping 3-5 (2-3%) per year. People emigrated from poor, isolated villages to the cities, in Italy or abroad, in search of employment and an easier life, leaving the elderly and the less able “at home” to fend for themselves. But there is a second factor too.

According to Guy Shrubsole in his new book “Who Owns England” (and there is no reason to doubt him) more than half of Britain’s land (if I have the figures right) is owned by just 25,000 families. The Italian system is very different. Not only were sharecroppers and tenants GIVEN the land they were farming or renting on the large estates during the process of Italian was unification (1815 – 1871) but most of Italy also applies the Napoleonic Code system of inheritance that sees one's estate (including land) divided between all the children at the death of the (final) owner, usually the farmer's wife. This has caused massive fragmentation of land-holdings and indeed it is not uncommon to find 6 or more co-owners of indivisible fragments of land of around 3000 square metres more than half of whom may prove untraceable or are now living in Argentina, Australia or the USA. This means it is virtually impossible to put together a viable land holding for any economic operations other than subsistence (firewood and vegetable plots).

Enough of the socioeconomic effects. What have the ecological effects of this extraordinary and spontaneous rewilding been? Well there are certainly pluses. Brown Bear, Grey Wolf and Lynx are all recolonists in NE Italy, albeit in small numbers. Red Deer and Roe Deer have increased too, although before the predators returned so it will be interesting to watch what happens. The Golden Jackal is colonizing Central Europe from the Balkans and other mesopredators such as Beech Marten, Badger, Red Fox, Raven and Wildcat all seem to be doing well, especially since rabies was eliminated through a large EU-funded vaccination programme. But what about the larger picture and that list of species I mentioned earlier?

Curlew, Lapwing, and Golden Plover, Black Grouse, Capercaillie, Twite, Ring Ouzel.

Well Curlew is a regular non-breeding visitor, Lapwing breeds in agricultural areas, Golden Plover is a regular but rare non-breeding visitor while Twite is a vagrant, but Black Grouse, Capercaillie and Ring Ouzel, all breed in the uplands of Friuli as do Rock Partridge, Hazel Grouse and Ptarmigan as well as Corncrake, Water Pipit, Snowfinch and Golden Eagle. All the latter ten species have been seriously impacted by this spontaneous “rewilding” (among other factors, including climate) either due to direct loss of open habitats (Black Grouse, Rock Partridge, Ptarmigan, Corncrake, Water Pipit, Ring Ouzel, Snowfinch and Golden Eagle) or (in the case of Capercaillie and Hazel Grouse) because the structure of their preferred habitat of light, open woodland has been adversely influenced by succession, or they have been affected by the increase in mesopredators that abandonment and depopulation have allowed.

Birds being negatively affected by this abandonment has not proved the only downside to this spontaneous ‘rewilding’. Other biodiversity and landscape diversity (a good proxy measure of biodiversity) has suffered too, particularly insects and plants as hay-meadows and high altitude grazing land have been allowed to scrub over while stands of pest-prone Norway Spruce have been planted on marginal land. Forest fires – rare when the Alps were intensively managed - have increased massively this century as the dense, scrubby stands become like tinder in dry summers and – more –recently – the final weeks of winter.

What has this got to do with the (hopefully temporary) withdrawal of the General Licences? Lots. The General Licences fiasco slots in as another battle in the ongoing "war" against driven grouse shooting (DGS) and the plans (and the philosophy behind the plans) for the use of “marginal” areas of Britain by people who by and large do not live in those areas are idealistic but will have both positive and negative effects upon biodiversity. I am going to make a confession. It’s like owning up to (say), voting for Brexit: I voted for the parliamentary debate to discuss the ban on DGS promoted by MA, CP and RT. I now think I was wrong. I think these points are best set out in a bullet list:

On consideration I no longer think that a ban on DGS would be good for biodiversity;

My experience in Italy suggests that large scale rewilding will have major impacts on biodiversity, many of which will be negative for species favoured by ‘traditional’ forms of land and wildlife management, and not just birds but plants and smaller organisms as well;

I think that “rewilding” as it stands takes little account of what established communities will do (economically) should it take place;

I think that the rescinding of the GLs is very bad for avian biodiversity whether this was Wild Justice's initial aim or not;

I do not believe that removing the distinction between the species previously covered by the GLs and those covered by special licences is good for biodiversity.

I also believe that MA, CP and RT (both individually over time and together in Wild Justice) ... and now the other extreme, let's call them the "shootists" ... have harnessed social media in such as way as to worsen the already polarized state of British nature conservation that - frankly – has stunned a substantial proportion of the remaining very knowledgeable and fairly conservative centre into what seems to me to a sort of sickened and fearful silence. This polarization of the debate is something which is occurring across the political discussion in the anglophone world and is something that saddens and worries me. There are many far worse enemies of biodiversity in Britain than the people who manage some of its private land in a “traditional” fashion that incorporates legal predator control. I don’t have to name them here. Nor will I but it includes the "agents" of intensive agriculture that lobby for the use of their own products in it. Often many of "them" are not people or companies at all but “policies” decided at various levels. Suffice to say there are 25,000 companies and organizations with offices in Brussels alone, let alone those in the capitals of Europe. We need to maintain an alliance across the spectrum of the millions of people in Britain who hold biodiversity (in some form or another) at the centre of their value systems. I believe Wild Justice is not helping that process. I am disgusted by the way CP, MA, RT and Wild Justice have found themselves on the end of death threats and intimidation but I also abhor the way in which the entire argument has been actively politicized and subject to ‘ramping up’ in social and traditional media by both sides. We are all diminished by it, the silent centre included.

I shall probably lose some “friends” and “followers” over this post, but I won’t remain silent. Aristotle (in his Nicomachean Ethics) (effectively) said that “In medio virtus stat” – that “virtue lies (somewhere) in the middle” (and not at the extremes). Aristotle was also (probably) the first true scientific naturalist and as such his position is good enough for me.

Thankfully I will be away showing a group around Istria this week so don’t expect much discussion or many replies from me. At least we will have something to chatter about without recourse to the dreaded and divisive “B-word” at all!









__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

There as been a shuffle DEFRA with NE Ne now just released Wood pigeon General licence and it includes canada geese. ? these people are clueless .
Info here. What are they doing Valid until September are pigeons going on schedule two ? Not clear as yet.
www.gov.uk/government/news/new-general-licences-for-controlling-canada-geese-and-wood-pigeon-comes-into-force


__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

A quick update on the ridiculous situation we find ourselves in here in ENGLAND.
The government are still deciding what do do< After stripping Natural England of control of the General Licence. Here is a video of part of the enquiry from Tuesday this week. Its not all bad news for shooting here but it does smell of a whitewash.
It is so difficult over here, the anti gun and ban hunting groups with crowd funding are running riot and i do genuinely fear for our survival long term. But time will tell and lets hope this government enquiry throws up something possitive for our case.

The female panellists include Angela Smith Anti Gun . And Kerry McCarthy a front runner in the League against cruel sports. quite why the government wanted them on the panel is unclear but not good for our cause. Wish us well and we so need praying for . We are up against it here at the moment.

parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3610d6cf-6d1e-45ed-ab7f-3b6c0f9a5c43


__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 340
Date:
Permalink  
 

They have attempted that over the decades here succeeding in some bans notably California-no coyote hunting in the foot hills of Los Angeles resulting in pet cats and small dogs being snatched right before their owners eyes. Ban on mountain lion and grizzly bear hunting across the state with academic deaths and attacks otherwise of hikers and others.....these seasons were there for a reason!!!

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

GEORDIE TOM wrote:

As of 112.01 am today 14/6/ 2019 Defra have issued new General licences. These are fit for purpose so we are now able to pick up where we left off on the 24th of april 2019.
BASC and NGO are consulting through the rest of the summer to make suitable amendments , as these licences do not cover some protected sites and need adjustment . plus Gulls and collared doves are not on list any more so still work to do by our organisations.
But to all intents and purposes we are off again and the lobbying of parliament and research done by BASC and some other orgs have saved our bacon.
We can now breathe a sigh of relief once again until the next attack by the antis on our real conservation activities.


 



__________________
if it was that simpleeven i could do it!


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 190
Date:
Permalink  
 

As to Bear/Mountain lion hunting in California my Uncles would take 30 hounds. There are no roads only fire breaks. So when they would turn the hounds on a track it could take up to 3 days to reach the pack on foot. By the time they reached the pack only a handful would still be alive. The laws have changed now so you can only hunt with 1 dog at a time. This give the wild animals a fair chance. Well for the hunter it’s not worth hunting. As for the fire breaks the residents voted not to put in fire breaks anymore. Now the state burns up do to Manzanita brush as it is an oily base and can set itself on fire from just the reflection of the sun. I’ve caught more Coyotes next to houses then in the woods or fields. They love house cat as a favorite meal. There is more food where people reside then in the woods. Any trapper knows that.  



__________________
Terrell Harpe


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 150
Date:
Permalink  
 

 Anti-hunting is not a state or country thing it is a worldwide thing and it is always good to know what is going on across the globe because eventually, pun intended, it will come to roost here! 



__________________
http://wildinthewoods.proboards.com/index.cgi?
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.