Crow Busters Forum

Bob · Guru

open chokes

Hizzoner · Senior Member

My buddy ED Flannigan used to always pass comment about Lord Rippon, the first time I heard his name I asked who he was and the response was that "HE WAS A GAME HOG!" Now I see why. Yesterday, Saturday I took my labs "AUDIE (named after our most decorated soldier of WW2 "AUDIE MURPHY") and MAE my 15 week black lab out pigeon shooting and I brought my 391 Extrema and one of my model 12 trap guns with a 3/8 simmons rib/30" full choke, maybe its me but I hit good with the Beretta ,but with that model 12 I "SMOKE BALL 'EM" and I was saying to myself boy they made some awsome guns years ago!

M12Shooter · Guru

Interesting facts Bob. The Brits do have thier own style of bird shooting and I would wage a bet that Lord Rippon mostly shot driven birds. I would bet that all his shooting was done with one 1/16 ounce of shot from his doubles with 2 1/2 inch chambers to boot!

I only own one fixed "open choked" shotgun, an M12 skeet choked WS1 which I understand is just this side of cylender bore. Great on summer crows in tight, ruffed grouse, jack snipe and of coarse skeet. Anything past 30 yards is reaching IMO.

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Saturday 4th of September 2010 11:31:06 PM

Bob · Guru

Hi Hizz,

Lord Rippon was an aristocrat, he was part of Brittians aristocracy, so were most all the shooters during that time. Thats where they get the saying " shooting is the sport of kings" because only the rich hunted.

The game keepers would raise thousands of pheasants on each estate. Lord Rippon traveled throughout Europe to participate in these grand shoots, sometimes as many as 75 to 100 guns (people) would be shooting during the afternoon.

Lord Rippon was also pretty good with a smooth bore, his passion was wing shooting and playing billiards. Thats all he did to entertain himself as far as I know. I don't think he was a game hog because he lived in a differen't time. All the birds that were shot were sold at the local markets in those days. But.... game hog or not, you can't take away what he did during those years. That is some record of game birds over a 50 year period by one man!

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

Hi M12,

Yup, the 1 1/16th ounce load they still use today in Europe. It was all driven birds, even in France & Scotland. Lord Rippon also hunted in those countries as well.

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

Actually even today in Europe and the Brittish Isles it is not uncommon for shooters to kill a hundred or more driven pheasant in a days shooting. These, as Bob stated, are raised birds on private estates or "shooting grounds" as the Brits put it.

Still the sport of the very wealthy and ruling class. Most of these shoots take place in some sort of covert soclusion due to the animal rights folks. Most of thses shooters are excellent shots on driven birds and are very "mechanical" in technique...much like trap and skeet shooters. Many of these shooters would have a bit of trouble rough or walk up hunting as they call it...which is simply walking up on your quarry, flushing it and shooting...aka, field hunting biggrin

Ted

Bob · Guru

M12,

They still book driven pheasant shoots in Denmark, Scotland, Great Brittian and Czechoslovakia. You're shooting party buys the birds ahead of time, it can be anywhere from 8 to 10 guns in the party. Thats where you will see some real works of art in the field like Holland & Holland, Purdey, Churchill, Piotti, Rizzini, Ferlib, Gamba, Lebeau-Courally and Perazzi.

Many of these estates have been hosting gents with deep pockets for over 300 years! One such Castle is in Moravia, it's known as Zhidlochovice Castle. Some shoots can be as high as 2000 pheasants in an afternoon between 8 to 10 guns; this Castle hosts between 200 or more groups of die in the wool shooters from around the world and brings in between 6 to 8 million dollars during the hunting season for this one Castle alone! This is driven shooting at it's finest and thats why the shooters pay (each) anywhere from $ 12,000 to $ 18,000 for a five day shoot depending on how many birds are under contract.

When you go on a shoot like this you are sometimes surrounded by 400 year old oak trees and lots of history.

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

Thanks for the interesting commentary Bob. I can see you have done much reading on the topic, and prhaps taken part in one of these grand shooting events.

...and it's not uncommon to dine at a country tavern in Britan or Europe and find pellets in the pheasant you've just ordered for dinner!

)

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

If you have a crow hanging above you at 50 yards that will not commit or a going away shot at a second bird at 45 yards what choke would you rather have? Open or Tight?

Not every opportunity will be at 30 to 35 yards.

I am not shooting crows for the table, they can't be hit too hard.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 5th of September 2010 04:25:24 PM

Hizzoner · Senior Member

Hi Bob,
I would have loved to have been able to gun like that and I would proudly loved to be classified as a "GAME HOG" . Boy , imagine having those birds and you dogs with you? AWSOME!!
Still would love to have my model 12's-101's-97's or 50's!! biggrin

watch em fall · Senior Member

If you can kill a bird at 40-50 yards with a full choke , YOU CAN KILL IT WITH A MODIFIED CHOKE TOO. If you believe it won't, that is why you miss. You take the shot and the bird will fall biggrin

. BB's out of a full choke and going the same speed as BB's out of a skeet tube. It took me 20 plus years to figure that out,but once you believe it you will kill more crows. I've always said if you can shoot a full choke and hit them,use it. But the majority of people never learn to shoot well enough should use a more open choke. I know this debate will prolly be argued 75 years from now

, so we can agree to disagree right

.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Few shooters actually know what their guns are choked beyond referring to the stamping on the barrel or choke tube. My old Parker 10 bore has 27 and 29 thousands of constriction, technically modified. The gun however throws devestatingly tight 80%+ patterns of 6's and 7.5's in a 30" circle at 40 yards. This would considered xtra full. My hunting partner has an Ithaca NID short ten that will throw near 100% patterns at 40 yards. Sure is fun to watch the plumes of feathers!

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 5th of September 2010 05:39:59 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Debate debate debate
shot size is a bigger factor on distance than choke constriction Wichita in turn equals pattern density I would haft to say my reason would be that let's take 8 shot for ex 8 shot has a limited range before it looses power to knock a bird down let's just say for figures 35yds. So no matter what choke from skeet to xx full you need x pellets at 35 teds to have enough ft pounds of force to take em out. Full choke might squeek a few more yards of range but may be tough on them shots that are with in few yards of you. You have like 300+ #8 shot pellets in a 1 1/8 load how you constrict them is pertinate to how you hunt. So with 8 shot in a more open choke you have lots of pellets to not leave holes in the patteren as you would with 6-5-4 shot because as shot size goes up range is in creased and pellets # goes down but when the birds are only coming by at longer ranges one should choke up and use larger sizes of shot for more humane kills less cripples and runners so to as which is better or the best is up to thoes that are holding the gun
my self if some one asked me to pick the only combo that I could use for the rest of my life I would say #7 1/2 s out of a modified choke. This would prolly give the best of both worlds lots of pellets good range but also good for close shots.
All the pellet numbers in my little rant are prolly off a little I would haft to look them up but I would rather wait for them to come into skeet range and then dust them my self but forget that once the snow flys it's mod choke and 71/2 or6 shot.

M12Shooter · Guru

Have to agree with 1983. If the God's touched me on the shoulder and said I could only use one choke constriction for bird hunting I too would choose a light modified and 7 1/2 shot.

Have to remember here that a lot of the older shotguns were choked much tighter than modern counterparts as ammo from yesteryear was not of the quality seen today. The one single factor that made modern ammo pattern so well has to be the intoduction of the plastic shot collar in the later 60's.

I learned to shoot with a full choke and paper shells with fibre or cardboard wad's. Further, I would gladly go back to that ammo if it was re-introduced!

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Monday 6th of September 2010 12:00:35 AM

Hizzoner · Senior Member

Hi Watch 'em,
I shoot all chokes,Like Bob said he shoots a full because he wants to blow them up! I also shoot a full choke cuz I also like to blow 'em up or smokeball 'em. When you do it consistently and with confidence then you know you are on your game!! NO MATTER HOW CLOSE OR HOW FAR THE BIRDS ARE!!

-- Edited by Hizzoner on Monday 6th of September 2010 12:01:45 AM

watch em fall · Senior Member

I'd prolly agree modified and 71/2's if I had to commit to one choke and one shell. Thankfully I got every tube from skeet to ext.full and I use 8's, 71/2and sometimes 6's. I smoked one yesterday at about 45 yards with a patternmaster while goose hunting. With my Traditions ALS 2100, it shoots right where you point it with any choke. I guess I could shoot full or ext.full, but sometimes I rattle after a few easy misses! So

I guess that's why Mod tube is in my 85-90% of the time.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:

Have to agree with 1983. If the God's touched me on the shoulder and said I could only use one choke constriction for bird hunting I too would choose a light modified and 7 1/2 shot.

Have to remember here that a lot of the older shotguns were choked much tighter than modern counterparts as ammo from yesteryear was not of the quality seen today. The one single factor that made modern ammo pattern so well has to be the intoduction of the plastic shot collar in the later 60's.

I learned to shoot with a full choke and paper shells with fibre or cardboard wad's. Further, I would gladly go back to that ammo if it was re-introduced!

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Monday 6th of September 2010 12:00:35 AM

Actually my partner has dome some pattern testing with antique ammo, paper winchester super x's, old paper UMC's etc. He found his Parker's threw just as tight a pattern on average as the newer shells with plastic wads.

watch em fall · Senior Member

Natchez Shooting Supplies actually still sells paper shells 12 guage ,RIO brand name?

www.natchezss.com or1-800-251-7839. When I was about 13-14 years old, man that was awhile ago, I bought 12 boxes of winchester expert field loads in 6and7.5 shot off an older gettleman who couldn't hunt anymore due to health. They were paper shells and shot great. I wish he would have had 120 boxes cause then I might have some left

.

chip · Guru

Well put 1983 I liked your thread biggrin

I'm not sure I agree with all this talk about putting shot on paper. When you shoot at paper (still target) and count 38 or 40 pellets thats great for a shooting match copetition, but shooting at a fast moving target will affect your string dont you think??? I like to pattern a gun somtimes by rolling a tire with paper taped on the center of the tire. Try that and see if it dont pattern different.

jd1983 · Senior Member

Yes that is the other thing that affects your patteren in wing shooting chip. Your shot comes out in a string. So patterening on a stationary target is useless except for turkey hunting. It's like taking a glass of water and whiping the water out at some thing the water does not stay the dia of the glass it doesent even hold the perfectly round shape.the way water reacts in that ex is about how shot does try it shooting down on a pond that may help you see it or as chip says roll a tire with a piece of cardboard in the center and shoot at it.
If the object and gun where moving the same speed then the object should connect with the same amount of shot as if patterened sitting still.
Am in right this is a good phisziks question

jd1983 · Senior Member

Nhc: wads alone can make or break a patteren the number of slits how hard or soft the plastic is how thick it is wether or not there is a under card in the wad to keep some shot from sticking in the wad durring the shot all affect patteren.
Then there is powders crimp primer wad pressure during loading and then what type of hull. Yes we are talking shot guns they just scatter the shot but all these thing may cause the shot to scatter differently in any gun choke combo.

Hizzoner · Senior Member

Until steel shot kicked in for years all we used shooting sea ducks over decoys was 7 1/2 -1 1/4 with 35grns blue dot and full choked guns and it was LETHAL!!

Skip · Guru

Love this Subject!!

Continuing this fine discussion, comment on these two related statements please:

shot size is a bigger issue than choke constriction on being able to kill at long distances..

shot size is a bigger issue than choke constriction on consistently killing at long distances..

Skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

jd1983 wrote:

Nhc: wads alone can make or break a patteren the number of slits how hard or soft the plastic is how thick it is wether or not there is a under card in the wad to keep some shot from sticking in the wad durring the shot all affect patteren.
Then there is powders crimp primer wad pressure during loading and then what type of hull. Yes we are talking shot guns they just scatter the shot but all these thing may cause the shot to scatter differently in any gun choke combo.

An advancement in pattern performance by plastic shotcups is another old shotgunning wives tale. Plastic shotcups reduced the cost of loading shells for manufacturers and made the process of loading shells easier. Old shotshells without plastic shotcups were capable of extra full performace.

Sept. 7 1895 Sporting Life http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL2524016.pdf

Ed Taylor, of Cincinnati, for curiosity's sake, gave his light 12-gauge Yankee Smith gun a patter trial at various distances the past week, his target being a 30-inch circle, his load 3 1/4 drams Troisdorf smokeless powder and 1 1/8 ounce No. 7 1/2 shot.
Here are the patterns made with the left barrel:
30 yards 395 pellets
(There are 388 U.S. 7 1/2 pellets in 1 1/8 oz., 400 English 7 1/2 so probably English size)
40 yards 333/ 400 = 83%
40 yards 325 = 82%
50 yards 230 = 57.5%
50 yards 230 = 57.5%

Here is a pattern test of an antique shell this year by my hunting partner. "This pattern was shot with an old REM-UMC SHURSHOT paper 12 ga 3 drms 1oz #4, 132 pellets to an oz. This shell is about 40 to 50 years old. I shot it out of a 12 ga CHE acme barrels choked .022 at 40 yds rest shot. 115 out of 132 = 87%.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 6th of September 2010 06:28:58 PM

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 7th of September 2010 12:42:22 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

I diss agree on shot cups being a wives tale slits slit length #of slits have to factor in to the patteren equation.

Can't get your link to work.

LeviSS · Veteran Member

Yeah, shot cups have a huge affect on how the load patterns. I think he misunderstood you...you just said that wads have a big affect and he is comparing old wads to the new.

jd1983 · Senior Member

Nhc what does the info you posted prove beside them old guns were choked tight enough to take a turkey at 40 yds?

Skip
it's all relitive to the game you are hunting. It takes x ft lbs to bring down a crow and the smaller shot sizes require more pellets at longer ranges to strike the target to bring it down. The larger sizes require less pellets to hit there mark but require more constriction cause there are less pellets per oz so patteren needs to be a little tighter to get a good even patteren out of it.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

How much wider is the diameter in inches of an average pattern from a 12ga IC at 25 yards vs. the diameter of a 12ga full choke pattern at 25 yards? How big do you think the handicap for the tight choke at close range?

I think we are all in agreement full choke performs better as range increases beyond 40 yards and much more so at 50 yards and beyond.

My point is shotgun pattern performance has not changed much in 100 years. The old guns and old ammunition were capable of producing patterns as effective for long range shooting as anything sold today. Shells using plastic shotcups i.e. modern ammunition do not cause old shotguns to throw tighter patterns than they were designed to throw. That is the old wives tale I referred to. Guns more than 100 years ago were capable of throwing xtra or super full patterns.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 7th of September 2010 12:47:02 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Ic No harm in a little discussion. I will try and find out that info even if I have to set it up my self. If I can't find it I will do it

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I think you will find IC is only about 3 inches in diameter bigger at 25 yards.

Hizzoner · Senior Member

NH,
I agree, shotgun chokes,performance has not changed immensley,maybe speed and weight capabilities,style of guns etc. but full is full and cylinder is cylinder, different guns/loads/chokes= different patterns, but the principal is the same!!

Bob · Guru

When I pattern a new gun the main things of concern are does it shoot where I point it? You're point of impact is critical! Next is the density and the uniformity of the pattern this choke throws!

Not all the shot arrives at the same time on a moving target, so patterning you're shotgun at least gives you a good idea of the POI and the uniformity of the pattern of that particular shotgun.

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

Bob wrote:

When I pattern a new gun the main things of concern are does it shoot where I point it? You're point of impact is critical! Next is the density and the uniformity of the pattern this choke throws!

Not all the shot arrives at the same time on a moving target, so patterning you're shotgun at least gives you a good idea of the POI and the uniformity of the pattern of that particular shotgun.

Bob A.

Yup, not uncommon for some shotguns to have a point of impact way off...more so with cheap guns. Get hunk of cardboard and paint a large dot on it. From about 20 feet or so fire a shot at the dot. Do this several times to be sure. More than the odd gun will have a POI somewhere other than dead centre at that short range. Also some guns like trap models will shoot "high"...that is at 35-40 yards 60 percent or so of the pattern will be high. Have to know your gun, moreso for longer range shooting.

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Wednesday 8th of September 2010 04:15:27 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob wrote:

When I pattern a new gun the main things of concern are does it shoot where I point it? You're point of impact is critical! Next is the density and the uniformity of the pattern this choke throws!

Not all the shot arrives at the same time on a moving target, so patterning you're shotgun at least gives you a good idea of the POI and the uniformity of the pattern of that particular shotgun.

Bob A.

and that is one of the reasons I am loving my old 10 bore. Shorter shot string and more undeformed pellets arriving at the same time = lots of feathers and stone dead crows at long range.

chip · Guru

I wish you boys could read my old threads when I was going through my ordeal with Remington and the new M887 I bought. Right out of the box it shot a beautiful pattern 18 inches low everytime. And as for wads just cut open a federal top gun, an Estate load and a Remington gun club and look at the differance. They are worlds apart!!!!

Skip · Guru

I continue to love this subject!! Great stuff.

With my two phrases: being able to kill at long distances vs. being able to consistently kill at long distances... was meant to make a salient point: being able to kill at 50 yards consistently, is better ( for your TBC anyway ) than being able to kill at 60 yards less consistently or occasionally. Consequently, when picking shot size and choke constriction, I want that combo that will consisitently kill at 50 yards ( or pick a yardage you like better ) so I set my gun up accordingly. Large shot and tigher chokes will kill further, but imposes a handicap on the shooter for shots under 35-40 yards. I submit you will not be as "consistent" throughout the "crow ranges".

Small shot (7 1/2 - 8's) with modest constriction chokes ( IC or MOD ) will kill crows as far as most of us care to shoot at them or can accurately place the pattern. Small shot allows the luxury of a larger pattern with acceptable kill density. This means much easier shots for close in targets and full confidence on the 50 yarders. Remember, trap shooters ( 7 1/2s - 8s ) consistently "smoke" clay targets from the 27 yard line.. and that small trailing edge of a clay target is far smaller than a crow.

Life is a compromise... so is shotgunning.

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip I can kill consisently with my 10 Bore and #6 shot at 50 yards and beyond. I kill with it consistently at 20 yards as well. My zone of effective fire is further shooting a big bore and large shot. If one practices their wing shooting full choke is no handicap at close range and is absolutely needed if one wished to kill at longer ranges.

OK I will open up the can of worms.

My observations are that open chokes and small shot is the advice (and good advice) for those who are lesser practiced/skilled with a shotgun.

7.5's and 8 are more often favored because they are more readily available and less expensive than high quality loads of larger shot. A crow is just as dead if I square him with full choke and 6 shot at 20 yards or 8's through an IC (You can't bust up a crow too hard as we are not eating them which is a consideration for many other birds) At 50-55 yards my odds of killing crow with a tight choke and 6's is much greater and at that range 7.5's and 8's are marginal for consisent kills.

TBC requires the shooter to hit birds and when you come right down to it proper choke and shot size selection is dependent on the skill of the shooter. A good shooter will increase TBC with a gun capable of extended range whereas a lesser skilled shooter is better to take birds at closer range with a more open choke to increase their probablity of hitting the target.

Shot size is irrelevant at close range but not so at longer ranges.

Choke is irrelevant at close range to a skilled gunner, but tight chokes are needed for consistent long range kills.

I am not saying this to brag. Both my partner and I are accomplished and above average shotgunners. This is why I like a 10 or 12 gauge with tight chokes and #6.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 8th of September 2010 08:14:36 PM

Bob · Guru

NH,

I enjoyed reading you're post. What you say about using full choke is also quite true solong as the shooter is good enough to handle it. If a shotgunner is skilled enough he has the right choke for all shots such as you describe. But this is not the case for 90% of the shooters in the USA.

In regard to shot size all I can say is that 7 1/2's will kill crows stone dead at 55 to 60 yards if you have a good hold on them. Dick, one of my crow hunting partners and I were out crow hunting several years ago and during our time in that spot I had perhaps 5 or 6 real long shots. The crows were flying a fence line parallel to our blind, all were killed with 7 1/2's out of a modified choke that patterns like a full choke. Anyway, when we were picking up after we were done we stepped off the yardage to the fence line, it was 65 yards!

So it boils down to skill level and what the shooter has confidence in.

Bob A.

Skip · Guru

NH: I cannot relate to a 10 ga.. and crows. I have no experiece with such a gun. I have no doubt whatsoever, everything you say about it is true. The gun would kick waaaay too much for me as a typcial crow day is 100-200 rounds. But what I do disagree with is your statement that the odds of killing a crow at 50-55 yards is marginal using 7 1/2 and 8's. Fact is, you have it reversed. I think you might believe that smaller shot will not kill a crow cleanly at this yardage but it does so easily.

Are you shooting at crow over 60 yards routinely? Is this why you favor the 10 ga.? Perhaps so and all I can say is.. go for it. Your shooting skills are evidently sufficient to accomplish this. I know I could not hit the twisting, diving, turning birds inside the canopy of trees running and gunning with a full choked 10 gauge (heavy gun I bet ) with #6's. Your pattern at 25-30 yards with full choke has got to be just about the size of the crow!! Hey.. keep busting them up just the way you do it.. to each his own.

Is shot string performance one of the reasons you use a 10 gauge? You mentioned, I think, the importance of shot string in an earlier post. Just curious.

skip

-- Edited by Skip on Wednesday 8th of September 2010 09:38:18 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

I think I am with skip on this 55-60 yds and larger shot. Got a lot of holes in a patteren possibly. Yes it may take 2x as many 8s at that range but there is enough of them in flight to put thoes odds in your favor.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I shoot the 10 bore because one it's a blast, two it's so darn effective. Seriously, I have never had this much fun with a shotgun in a long time. It is now clear to me why 10ga's were banned from both trap shooting and live pigeon shooting even though they had a longer handicap in live pigeon shooting. They gave a competitor too much of an advantage.

Although my double gun weighs 10 pounds it is well balanced and handles nicely. I am not shooting a 10ga magnum with 3.5" shells. I am shooting a standard 10 ga load of 1 1/4 ounce in a 2 7/8" shell. One might think a 12ga with 1 1/4 ounce would shoot the same, it does not. The larger bore produces tighter patterns and shorter shot strings. Shooting lots or rounds a day is not a problem, recoil is neglible.

I know for fact at long range tight chokes and 6's produce more clean kills than small shot. It's based on 35+ years of shooting crows and watching others shoot them as well. The tight chokes and 6 shot produce more dead in the air folds, far fewer flying crips and walking wounded. There are not enough holes in my patterns from this gun for a crow to get through out to about 65 yards, the tight chokes keep my #6 pellets good and tight. The short shot string is deadly on flying targets.

One thing I wonder about in this discussion is how does terrain factor into the average shoot. How does New England with it's large fur trees, oaks, maples etc compare with the plains states. My sense is birds may be on average flying higher in some places than others. Thoughts?

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 9th of September 2010 01:19:22 PM

M12Shooter · Guru

jd1983 wrote:

I think I am with skip on this 55-60 yds and larger shot. Got a lot of holes in a patteren possibly. Yes it may take 2x as many 8s at that range but there is enough of them in flight to put thoes odds in your favor.

1 1/8 oz. #7 1/2 shot...contains 388 pellets, 1 1/4 oz. #6 shot contains 276 pellets...I would personally shoot fine shot because of this as crows are rather fragile.

Ted

watch em fall · Senior Member

I've been away for a few days, but I can see this discussion and debate continues!
I still believe that once someone is convinced they have the perfect gun,choke and shot size combo noone will easily convince them otherwise. And as for shot string, if you're shooting #8's going 1235-1300 fps it can't be that big of deal. It all leaves the barrel in a lump with any gun,any guage, and any shot size confuse

. I still think confidence in your choice is more important than your choice wink

.

Skip · Guru

NH: You have mentioned shot string a couple of times so I am assuming you consider this a variable worth considering when picking a shell or gauge. Care to discuss?

As for terrain/trees affecting the flying envelope of a crow, I would say only tall thick trees would present a problem as the crows would probably approach about the height of the trees as he would be unable, for the most part, to fly under the canopy. Otherwise, woods with open areas, less thick trees ( regardless of height ), open terrain, flat, rolling hills.. etc.. might cause some variation in flights....but my guess is, virgin birds will come to all terrains either low, medium and high...depending on how well you are hidden, call and shoot. I have shot in areas from flat with no trees, to rolling, modestly thick woods and all in between...with no noticeable difference in flight: in your face kami-kazi.. to too high to shoot. But, this is just one person's observation.

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

I'm sure you're 10 gauge is fun to shoot on the high ones, but for the most part it is a very impractical. Ammo would be far to costly for any volume shooting, plus the weight of the 10 gauge would wear you out on any kind of decent crow hunt. An additional 2 1/2 pounds for a shotgun (10 gauge) is wonderful for reducing recoil but you pay a price for it, it's not going to be near as responsive as a 7 1/2 pound 12 gauge in you're hands. The better the shoot the more you are going to experience fatigue with a 10 pound firearm. Just breaking the breach open every time you get two shots off, that alone would wear you down on any crow hunt that surpassed 200 birds or more, and thats if you were a young guy in decent shape.

I have no doubt that the larger bore on the 10 bore patterns very well on long and high birds. It would be fun to shoot just for fun on the high birds, but the truth be known, a 20 gauge will handle most crow shoots in the good ole USA.

I think it's nice that you keep some of those fine old guns alive and still use them for hunting crows. I know you get a great deal of satisfaction by using you're 10 gauge double on crows wheather they are close or way down range. I also realize that you live in an area that is not rich in crow numbers so using the 10 bore is no problem because you don't get the high volume shoots.

I want to make it clear to any young fellas that are starting out that you are a very seasoned hand at the wing shooting game, but you're choice in using a 10 gauge is not a very good one for the average guy, and that is the whole point of my post today.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob, my reloads for the 10ga are running about $9.00 a box of 25 , not a whole lot more than the $7 to $8 people pay for AA's or STS 12's. Around these parts a two man shoot with 40 to 50 birds down is a hot day. I do not think it would wear me down, certainly no more that a state championship trapshoot where I am using an 8 pound 12ga and shooting 900 to 1000 shells in 3 days with practice and shootoffs under circumstances that are far from relaxed. I never tried to imply a 10ga much less an antique one is for the average fella. However how do average fella's become seasoned hands unless they see and hear all the ways it can be done.

Skip the short shot string means more pellets hitting the target at the same time. I see the difference on breaks at the trap field and amount of feathers coming off the crows. It's very noticably different.

As far as impractical, that term seems to suggest ineffective or clumsy. It's far from it. I have every intention of switching over to a 12ga and 20ga when more birds start arriving from the north. The biggest drawback to the 10 is the extra bulk of the big fat shells. I can carry about 3 or 4 boxes into the field of 20ga in the same room 2 boxes of the big 10 take up. When birds are more scarce than plentiful and only a few shots may be presented I enjoying having all the gun I can handle.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 9th of September 2010 09:14:11 PM

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

Yup, I know that is when you use you're 10 gauge, when the birds are scarce and more than likely spooky to boot.

A state trap shoot where you fire five rounds and then move to another station is quite differen't than a good crow shoot. For example, you mentioned shooting 1,000 rounds in three days at a state shoot, how about 500 to 600 rounds in just a few hours. Thats the big difference, you don't get time to rest inbetewwn stations or after you're squad of shooters is finished shooting you're round of trap. There is far more physical fatigue on a fast paced crow shoot plus remaining focused like any competitive sport. This is why the majority of crow hunters shoot pumps or autos.

My first season out here in Kansas I used a 12 gauge model 21 side by side for crows. It was just fine on the hunts where you might get a shot every two to three minutes. But for the barn burners it was sadly inadequate. With a pump or auto you don't have to reload as often plus they can be loaded in a vertical position.

The way an average shooter gets better is to get good advise from somebody who knows what they are talking about, not some yahoo who thinks he knows what he is talking about, I'm sure you will aggree. It also helps the average shooter to have a good coach stand in back of him and watch him shoot so he can advise the new shooter. Then plenty of practice!

Bob A.

wingmaster · Senior Member

Hum hears my 2 cents :) I have pattern my guns a lot. I have made a note book on my coupter to find the right load to use . But no matter what gun are load is use i look for the pellets that are even and true to center. Like in moring know the crows will fly low and close. My chosie is imp cly with 8 shot or 7 1/2. Yes i know what brand of amo to use for this. But the point is pattern the gun and have fun the next day:)

Skip · Guru

Wingmaster: Correct. One cannot over emphasize the importance of patterning your gun/choke/ammo choice. All subsequent decisions on how to improve your shooting stem from what you find punching holes on the patterning board.

skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:

Wingmaster: Correct. One cannot over emphasize the importance of patterning your gun/choke/ammo choice. All subsequent decisions on how to improve your shooting stem from what you find punching holes on the patterning board.

skip

Patterning is the most important thing if you shoot crows out of trees. Practicing your wing shooting on clay pigeons the rest of the year is the most important thing if you shoot them flying