Crow Busters Forum

You the man GB!

Hi Yote-Five-Seven,

Yes it is...  The old classic Winchester break open single shot.  It will probably kick me pretty good, but I can handle that.

Regards,

Gadget Bob

Hi Watch 'em Fall,

I have heard of that guage and some others that I beleive are used in Europe.  My goal is to harvest crows with all of the "standard" American guages.  Some say the 28 gauge "kills" out of proportion of it smaller size.  Apparently it is very well "balanced" ballistically. 

I have used the .410 bore enough to know it is tough to "score" consistently with it.  I

Take Care,

Gadget Bob

Hi GB,

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, they haven't had ammo for the 32 gauge in over 100 years! The old 32 and 14 gauges were side by side hammer guns. No proof steel in these old shotguns!

In Europe there are still some diehard 16 gauge fans, the 16 is a very nice gauge. But the 12 bore is king both in Europe and the USA.

Bob A.

Bob wrote:

In Europe there are still some diehard 16 gauge fans, the 16 is a very nice gauge. But the 12 bore is king both in Europe and the USA.

Bob A.

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The 16 gauge fell out of favor in this country when no specific class for it was created in the game of skeet shooting. 

The 10 gauge fell out of favor when it was banned from live pigoen and trap shooting.

The 12 gauge is only King when there is no 10 gauge in the blind or on the line to compete with it

 

Gadget Bob wrote:

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Hi NH and Bob A.,

I understand the 16 also lost popularity after the 3 inch 20 gauge shell came online.  I have heard people used to say "a 16 hits like a 12 and carries like a 20".

Regards,

Gadget Bob

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 I had heard the same thing too. I believe the 3" "magnum" 20ga came out in the 1920's.  I have seen evidence that Parker built some 16ga guns for 3" shells as well.  Early 3" shells in each gauge existed before the "magnums" came out.  They shot the same weight payload as shorter shells with more wadding.  There was a belief the additional wadding improved patterns.

Personnally I think a 3" 20ga with lead shot was not a good idea.  Every 3" Twenty I have shot kicked harder than any other gun.  Light guns and heavy payloads is not a good idea, anybody care to shoot a Thompson Center 6.5 pound 10ga magnum?

Bore size matters, anything a 3" Twenty can do a Sixteen can do better except maybe hold more steel pellets.

nhcrowshooter wrote:

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Bob wrote:

In Europe there are still some diehard 16 gauge fans, the 16 is a very nice gauge. But the 12 bore is king both in Europe and the USA.

Bob A.

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The 16 gauge fell out of favor in this country when no specific class for it was created in the game of skeet shooting. 

The 10 gauge fell out of favor when it was banned from live pigoen and trap shooting.

The 12 gauge is only King when there is no 10 gauge in the blind or on the line to compete with it

 

 

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The 16 gauge has been slowly sliding into obscurity both in Canada and more so in the US. Biggest problem that has plagued the 16 is the lack of qualiy ammo and IMO... to purchase good ammo here will set one back more than the price of premium 12 gauge trap loads. So therefore it's a no-brainer to shoot a 12.

I have shot absolutely thousands of crows with my 2 M12 16's and have nothing bad to say about the gauge itself...other than the poor ammo selection.

If Winchester had not phased out their compression formed case and/or if Remington would market an STS type 16 gauge case  I would then dust off my Mec and be back in business. 1 ounce loads of 8 shot at 1200 fps or 1 1/8th ounce loadings of 7 1/2 shot at 1265 for those windy days were the ticket.

Actually it's cloudy, windy and cold here this morning. The last of the crows are now gathered and ready to move south. I think I will pack my 16, a couple boxes of ammo and take a drive. Will post my results!

Ted       

I would think that there are a few handloaders out there using them old guns out of sheer oddity just because they can you know, which I think is great. If I had one I would shurly want some thing to feed it. Bpi even carries all brass hulls for black powder shotgunners.
They have some of the hard to find stuff for the scatter guns.
But for some one with a 16 or28 ga gun that is having a hard time finding shells loaded I my self would spend a few bucks getting set up to reload and buy 5-6 hundred hulls and have the piece of mind that ammo is available for an old favorite cause you can make it your self. It doesn't take long to run out 100 rds on a single stage press.
But to each is own

Bob wrote:

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As far as pass shooting goes (ducks & geese) the 10 gauge is king. But for anything other than this very specialized type of shooting it is not the king. For any type of volume shooting the 10 bore is more of a handicap than a help because it's to unwieldy.

Bob A.

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Sorry to disagree Bob but that is spoken like a man who has not handled, and shot a classic american double chambered for the 2 7/8" 10ga.

Crows are seldom shot on the flush with the gunner walking through the cover in pursuit.  They are far more like waterfowl responding to call  and decoy, coming to the shooter who more times than not has plenty of time to get ready.  A well balanced 10ga is not unwieldly in such a situation.

Big bore shotguns were banned due to their effectiveness in both target shooting and by wildlife agencies.  They were not banned because they were unwieldly. Read about Fred Kimble who shot a 6 gauge in competition until it was banned because his competitors complained.  Fred weighed 140lbs and his 6 gauge was a muzzle-loader.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/Kimble.htm

The 10ga is not king in terms of popularity.  It is not king on cost or availability of shells and reloading components. It is king based on what matters most, performance. 

Do you need a 10ga to shoot crows, no.   Is  the zone of effective fire larger when using a 10ga, sure is. Is it a blast to shoot crows with a 10ga, sure is.  

NH,

Ah yes, Fred Kimble & old "Bowhamp" at least I think his gun was spelled that way.

Mr. Kimble sure shot his share of waterfowl in his day with the 10 gauge but even with that being said it can not come close to the volume you get on crows. If he shot 75 to 100 ducks during a days hunt that was a damn good hunt in the late 1800's to early 1900's in the USA. A very mediocre crow hunt is 75 to 100 crows in a day!

I know you are a knowledgeable guy about shotguns but you have no experience with volume crow shooting. To suggest that a 10 pound 10 gauge is to you're advantage on high volume shoots (300 birds or more, one shooter) is utterly asinine. I'm quite sure it wouldn't take very long for you to put you're 10 gauge aside and grab a decen't 12 bore on a high volume shoot. The reason is because the bulk of your shooting is between 20 to 40 yards. You loose far more than you gain with the behemoth 10 gauge on high volume shoots in my opinion.

Bob A.

John,

A 10 pound 10 gauge shooting the 1 1/4 ounce load would be close to shooting a 7 1/2 pound 12 gauge with trap loads as far a srecoil is concerned, but that is as far as it goes. You would be worn out hefting that behemoth around on a volume shoot. Think about it this way, you have to break the breach open and close it every two shots! Say you get 300 shots off which is quite common on a decen't crow hunt, thats 150 times you are breaking the gun open & shut during a shoot, that alone would force you to submit to fatigue.

If all the shooting was at 60 yards and beyond where you might get 50 to 75 shots at birds all day I would be right there with NH with a 10 gauge. But this is not the case in crow hunting as you well know. This is why I gave up hunting waterfowl, it's just not worth it to me to go out for just a few web feet. A friend of mine from New York used to shoot a Russian over & under (12 gauge) where the muzzle size was that of a 10 gauge and NH is quite right, it did pattern very well with the larger bore size.

I think NH is satisfied to shoot anywhere from 10 to 30 crows in a day with the 10 bore and that is just fine. But for crows on volume shoots you want firepower with as little recoil as possible for the maximum effect! A breach loaded firearm just dosen't make the grade if you are a "true crow butcher"

Bob A.

Hey Bob, caught your reference to "Bo-Whoop". The gun actually belonged to Nash Buckingham and was an A H Fox 12 gauge 3 inch magnum bored extra full and extra full. He was a lover of the long shots at mallards and was a remarkable shot with the gun. His favorite load was 1 5/8th ounce of copper plated 5 shot of Winchester Super X Brand.

Apparently Nash left it on the roof of his car as he was distracted by friendly banter with some other hunter. The gun was lost when he forgot it on the roof and drove away. Lots of legends about what happened to the famous shotgun and rumors surface about it re-appearing from time to time.

Kind of cool info and I love his writings)

Ted

Minnesota John, I am shooting a standard 10ga load with 1 1/4ounce lead shot. Recoil in not a factor, it's very tame.

Mike27, I also have a BPS 10ga, bought it new in 1989 when steel shot was mandated in NH. It weighs 9.5 pounds and with high speed 1 5/8 ounce steel shot it kills on both ends. 15 to 20 shots is plenty and leaves me sore.. AGAIN I AM SHOOTING A STANDARD 10GA 2 7/8" SHELL IN A PARKER DOUBLE BARREL......NOT A MAGNUM 3.5" 10GA. REPEATER. I can shoot this gun all day long and never be bothered by the effects of recoil. You comparing an apple to an orange.

Bob I would love to try using the old double on a volume crow shoot you describe, I believe I am up to the task. However I don't live in a place where I would ever experience that. If I did I might switch to a 20ga but I am not sure I would abandon a double gun, I really like them. Fact is more crow hunters live in places where they see a lower volume rather than a high volumes you have experienced.

Ted and Bob. Nash Buckinghams Bo Whoop was found and sold at auction this past spring.



http://www.ducks.org/news/2118/LostandfoundBuckingh.html

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 21st of September 2010 01:12:02 AM

Hi Nasty,

Nation wide 75 to 100 crows is a good day, but not out here in the central part of the USA.

Bob A.

Hi NH and Bob A.,

I like to call my Browning Gold 10 ga. "The Hammer"...  It is an older all steel model and all of that weight really eats up any harsh recoil.  Right now it is setup with an EoTech and LaserMax for nighttime patrols vs. raccoons, opossums, armadillo's and skunks with its short factory barrel through an SRM "Terror Tube" choke.  It was also shipped with a 28 barrel that is used on geese and occassionally crows with an AnglePort IC choke.

Regards,

Gadget Bob

Hi Jim,

That makes a lot of sense... 

Regards,

Gadget Bob

Bob wrote:

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Hi Nasty,

Nation wide 75 to 100 crows is a good day, but not out here in the central part of the USA.

Bob A.

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Bob it would be a record day for me in NH.  The best shoot I was ever involved with lasted about 4 hours and started with 4 shooters.  A couple of guys had to leave early for work leaving me and my regular partner together for the last hour and half. When we picked up we put down 64 crows total.  That happened in 2000.

 

Hello NH,

I read you're post about you're best shoot in 2000. On field types of shoots where the shooting is much more drawn out you could use you're side by side because you mainly get singles and doubles coming into the setup over a period of anywhere from 2 to 7 hours depending if you are in the right spot. Shoots like that can produce anywhere from 100 to 450 crows or more, but it's drawn out so it's much more relaxed.

Now on the other hand during a good flyway shoot you might shoot the same amount of crows as a field setup, but it's done anywhere from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours. In most cases it's 2 1/2 hours in duration so a double gun can't keep up, you loose to many opportunities with a side by side. It wouldn't matter what the gauge! No way can a man with a side by side or over & under keep up with another man shooting a pump or auto in this type of situation.

Sincerely,

Bob A.

Hello NH,

Every year is differen't, sometimes they are a little late, sometimes they move to a differen't area, this is the reason you scout. A lot of people don't realize the amount of scouting that is neccessary throughout the season inorder to keep getting good shooting. You might see them feeding like gang busters in an area one week and the following week they might be several miles or more from that location.

Bob A.

Bob wrote:

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Hello NH,

Every year is differen't, sometimes they are a little late, sometimes they move to a differen't area, this is the reason you scout. A lot of people don't realize the amount of scouting that is neccessary throughout the season inorder to keep getting good shooting. You might see them feeding like gang busters in an area one week and the following week they might be several miles or more from that location.

Bob A.

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Yes Sir! It's like that here in Manitoba this time of the year. Might find thousands of crows feeding at a location one day and the next day the whole gang is down in the U.S. somewhere.

Ted

 

Local Wildlife Workers claim the West Nile Virus has something to do with lack of crows in Massachusetts. There are still roosts in the area but mostly urban areas which are almost impossible to hunt. NH I am not sure if you have that in your area.

Bob, it appears to be another outbreak of the dam WNV. I did a little research and it appears there is a significant breakout of the West Nile Virus just south of me in MA. It is obviously here in NH as we have the first reported case in a human since 2003. The first time this disease swept through the area, 2003, our crows were wiped out and the hunting extremely poor. They had rebounded well with last year being the best year since that outbreak. As I have previously reported we are seeing an incredible decline of crows to shoot in my area. This appears to be why.  From a crow hunters perspective, THIS SUCKS!

http://www.wmur.com/health/25053676/detail.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/200841.php



-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 12:17:23 PM

I'll tell you right now you do not want to see WNV in your area if you are a crow hunter. It will change things for the worse like you can't believe. I am hoping we get a wave of migrants as we usually do, however in my experience that wave moves through the area in a few days time.

SD, are things pretty bad in your neck of the woods too? It is amazing how few crows we are seeing right now here in seacoast NH.