Crow Busters Forum

nhcrowshooter · Guru

10 gauge recoil and crow shooting

jd1983 · Senior Member

For sake of saying wouldn't a #6 pellet wether out of a 10-20-12-16-28-410 all traveling out of whatever gauge gun. We are talking one pellet, traveling the same speed,1200 fps,would all impact and carry the same killing weight threw the ranges. Am I wrong?

By the way I don't think anyone told you a 10 gauge could not be used or that it sucked so let's put the boxing gloves back in the closet and all just get a long.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Yes JD one #6 pellet could be shot out of any gauge at a similiar velocity.

Please tell me that by that statement you are not suggusting all shotgun gauges are equal, because they are not. We are talking about shotguns and patterns of hundreds of pellets at various ranges. A shotguns overall performance and ability to kill is much more than the ballistics of a single pellet. The facts are the best patterns come from bigger bores, more pellets can be launched from bigger bores. A 20 gauge overall is more effective than a 410, just as a 10 gauge overall is more effective than a 12.

There are and have been a bunch of misconceptions especially statements to the effect of the recoil from a 10ga would be too much. There have also been statements to the effect the gun weighs too much to be effective.

There have also been comments about me using a 10ga that included asinine.

It is been said I am satisfied shooting fewer crows.

I put this post out about recoil to be informational. I thought shooters might find it interesting.

I am not trying to convince anyone to switch over. It does seem I am breaking some new ground here with this group by using a "short" 10ga. I am reporting how it is working well for me and my situation and how much fun I am having it with it. Why would you want to discourage me from doing that? Which may not be your intent but it seems that way.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 11:49:35 AM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

I think what your missing here is that the gun will wear you out, not from recoil but from simply handling the gun on a high volume shoot. I mean breaking open that gun like 400 times in 3 hours would wear out many a men. Now if you never shoot more then a 100 crows in on spot keep having fun :)

And shot string has zero effect on hitting a moving target. Lots of good stuff online that can convince one of that. I use to think shot string mattered but not anymore.

I am kinda fat and old so it would not work out for me well at all.

Oh and what are you paying for ammo?

John

-- Edited by Minnesota John on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 12:35:43 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

John I am not missing a thing (except an occasional crow). The 10lb gun is not wearing me out. Most every hunt is 2 to 4 hours in duration with 15 to 20 shells fired on average day. That is crow hunting in NH. It's a been darn good gun for the hunting conditions I have to work with.

Shot string doesn't matter on a moving target?

I disagree. It matters a whole bunch on a crossing shot especially 90 degrees, a longer shot string of equal pellets means the bird will be hit with fewer pellets if equally centered by a short and long shot string of equal payload and pellet size. The advantage to a longer shot string is you may hit a bird that was led too much. Most people tend to not lead a enough.

I can see the advantage of the shorter shot string on every clay pigeon and most crows. The clays break into more pieces and larger plumes of feathers off the crows. I wondered what was doing it, it's more pellets striking at the same time.

In NH in 35 years of hunting I have never fired 100 rounds in a single day of crow shooting.

I have to reload the short ten as only RST offers factory ammo. I have bought hulls and wads at auction to get better prices. On average my reloads are running me $9 a box for 25 shells.

Some discussion on shot string:

"A long shot-string is produced at the expense of pattern density. Quality shot will produce a more efficient pattern with less stringing, which will in turn ensure cleaner kills."

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/that-shot-string-thing-Page1.htm

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 01:24:59 PM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

Thanks for the link and I can see how that gun works great for you on your shoots.

I use to buy into all the shot string stuff like you posted, until I dug in a bit deeper and calculated how far the bird moves in pattern.

A duck for example moving at 45 MPH at 40 yards will move about 3-4 inches from the first pellet arriving in a shot string to the last pellet. Tighten up the shot string with your 10 gauge and the shot string goes to about 2-3 inches from the first pellet in the string getting there and the last pellet of the string. Basically the bird moves 1 inch difference in between the 2 shot strings. These are all scientifically shown on many websites online.

Now if we are talking about crows flying in at closer ranges, and slower that shot sting effect is greatly reduced. I would estimate the difference in crow shooting shot strings is at most 1/4 -1/2 inch in first pellet arriving and last pellet arriving. If that 1/4 to 1/2 inch matters to your shooting OK but for me I am no sharp shooter and could not tell the difference :)

And it is impossable to make your pattern elongated by shot string:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/ammunition/2009/04/bourjaily-shotgun-myth

No matter how fast you swing your gun, you can’t lengthen that shot string by “slinging shot.” A shot charge is effectively a solid slug of pellets tucked inside the wad until it exits the muzzle and encounters air resistance. No matter how hard you swing the barrel, you can’t spread that shot sideways as if you were Angelina Jolie in "Wanted." Prove this to yourself by shooting at the surface of the water, or a very wide piece of paper. Move the gun as fast as you can, but the resulting pattern will still be round.

Nevertheless, this myth won’t die, in part because it encourages you to do the right thing – keep the gun moving – albeit for the wrong reason.

John

nhcrowshooter · Guru

John, we do get some diver shooting up here in duck season, mostly buffleheads. When they are skimming the water at high speed you really get a visual of how much you need to be leading them. I never thought you could swing a gun and effect the shot string like a water through a hose. I do think the bird moves more than you say at 40 to 50 yards vs. the shot string which has slowed down considerably as the range extends. I have on more than one occasion killed a second duck trailing the intended target by six to eight feet and I have seen others do the same thing.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 02:02:26 PM

Lone Star Phil · Senior Member

NH:

I suspected the felt recoil of your large bore might be less than most shooters realize, thank you for quantifying it.

If you can swing it and hit with it, have at it, bro!

'Bring enough gun'!

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

What I mean by unwieldy is that it is much slower to move into action than a firearm almost 3 pounds lighter. Once you get it moving with the added weight it's ok, especially in pass shooting situations where you can see em coming and get set for the shot.

I seriously doubt that the 10 gauge hits em any harder than a 12 or 20 gauge because the 10 gauge pellets are going at the same velocity as the 12 or 20 gauge loads! You're 10 gauge patterns # 6's well and that is why you use them, plus you yourself feel better using # 6's as opposed to say 7 1/2's. It's not that the 10 gauge is hitting them any harder it's more about the larger shot size you are using. In your case it works for you because you are using a 1 1/4 ounce load of # 6's out of a 10 bore, if you were using the same load with 7 1/2's you wouldn't be hitting them quite as hard but you would be striking them with more pellets to be sure.

Crows do not take lead very well, they are a fragile bird like a dove or a quail. I would go head to head with any guy in the country 10 gauge VS 12 gauge on crows only, because they are fragile. Waterfowl, no way, you would have the edge for sure especially on canadian geese.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob, tell you what, it hits them harder (more pellets simultanously at the longer range). Ever shoot in a "Protection" or an Annie Oakley/Elimination? These are games where shooters stand on the 27 yard lind of the trap field and if a shooter misses others try to hit the same bird. I have gone head to head with 12ga's at extended ranges on the trap field shooting 1 1/8 7.5's. It hits clay pigeons harder consistently, the results can be witnessed. You would not want me using my 10ga against you in an Annie Oakley. I'll ride that bird out of your effective 12 ga range and have very good chance of breaking it if shooting first. If you are shooting first, don't miss, because no matter the range I have got a much better chance of putting you out.

There is a reason 10ga were given greater handicap distance before being banned from trap and live pigeon shooting. They were not banned because they were slow and unwieldly. They were not banned because they wore the shooter out. They were banned because they made long range shooting competition too easy which made determining a winner more time consuming.

As far as crows being fragile, absolutely more fragile than a duck. But if we were to play a game, put stakes out at 50 yards and say you can only shoot crows outside the stake, the 10ga with 6's in either of our hands is going to kill more birds outright.

And you ain't kidding about Canadian geese being tough. Just try to give a bird with a broken wing the coupe de gra and you'll find out how tough they are.

I'll agree the mighty ten is not the gun for every situation and I agree autos and pumps will provide a faster rate of fire. But for my situation this gun has been fun and more effective.

Bob wrote: "I seriously doubt that the 10 gauge hits em any harder than a 12 or 20 gauge because the 10 gauge pellets are going at the same velocity as the 12 or 20 gauge loads!"

Bob think about what you said for a minute. If this were the case in shotgun performance than a 410 or 28ga would be just as effective as a larger bore. You know that is not the case, otherwise the small bores would not have their own classes in skeet shooting and they would share equally in long run records. If it were true people could/would shoot 20 gauges effectively in ATA trap shooting. Neither is possible. Smaller bores can't perform as well as a larger bore, it's physics.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 03:24:30 PM

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

You are missing my point in regard to crows. The reason I said what I said was because you get all types of shots on crows and the greater majority are between 20 to 40 yards so there would be no advantage with a 10 gauge whatsoever. If you were just shooting at birds 60 yards and beyond then yes, the 10 bore would give a guy an edge. What you fail to realize is that (out here) 90% of your shots are at 20 to 40 yards and the other 10% are at 50 yards plus.

Another reason you would be handicapped with the 10 gauge is because of it's added weight. Now just hear me out, almost 3 pounds difference in additional weight will take it's toll on you. You are used to shooting just a few crows a day because that has been you're experience so far, so you figure "hey, no problem, I feel fine using a 10 1/4 pound firearm on crows" but you have never experienced volume shooting where you are shooting anywhere from 250 to 500 rounds or more within 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours! One shooter!

You mentioned the Annie Oakley shoots at trap ranges, I've done this as well, but this is much differen't than shooting in a shooting frenzy! You don't have time to get mentaly set in a shooting frenzy like you do in trap, skeet, five stand or sporting clays! This is instinctive shooting at it's best and you best be in good shape inorder to endure this punishment! You would be falling way behind a guy using a firearm that is almost 3 pounds lighter, perhaps not at first, but those extra 2 3/4 pounds would wear you down in the long run.

This is why I said I'd go up against any gent in the country 10 gauge VS 12 gauge on crows only!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

OK Bob, game on, invite me out. We'll settle it like men, in the blind. I am hoping you are right and I shoot my 10ga so much I literally collapse from fatigue. If I could get that much shooting I would be thrilled and I'd be down and out with a smile. smile

I need a chance to learn my lesson wink

However if you were with me here in NH and after only seeing a couple of tall one's in a couple of hours, I would expect you'd say "gimmee that 10ga for next one" biggrin

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 03:56:36 PM

Bob · Guru

NH,

With respect to the sub gauges (410, 28, and 20) the reason it appears that the 12 & 10 gauge hits birds harder is because you are putting more shot on the target than the sub gauges. As far as the 10 gauge goes if you were shooting # 6's through a 12 or 20 gauge and the velocity is the same the 10 gauge would not be hitting them any harder at all, the reason is because more shot is hitting the target. Now when your talkin more shot hitting the target then yes, it is getting hit harder, but it is not getting hit harder by each individual pellet, it's the cumulative effect of being hit with more pellets than the lesser gauges that makes the 10 & 12 gauge appear to be more powerful!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob, my friends and I have been shooting several 10ga doubles on clay pigeons, have you or have you been around a bunch of tens on the trap and skeet field? One friend uses and swears by his 1 ounce reloads. The heaviest loads we shoot at clays is 1 1/8. Same as the smaller bores. The 10 gauges (Parker and Ithaca doubles) break targets harder (more pieces) and we can break them pretty consistently from standing well beyond the 27 yard line just for fun (essentially shooting at 65 yard clay pigeons). From the 16 yard line we can ride them all the way until the target is just above the grass and smash them. It's the efficiency of the bore size not the amount of pellets we are throwing. However when we need to for Turkey's and Geese we can up the payload.

We have first hand experience of why the old 10 bore was banned from target shooting. Shoot a 10ga and 20ga with 1 ounce loads from 27 yards and see which gun breaks more targets. The 20ga can throw a maximum legal load for trap shooting why then is it completely outclassed by the 12's? In shotgunning, size matters.

Shoot a 1 ounce load from a 10ga, 12ga and 20ga and the patterns will be tighter as the bore gets bigger . It's the square payload thing, fewer pellets scrubbed out of round by the bore, and fewer pellets stacked on top of each other which results in the bottom ones being crushed out of round on firing.

A smaller bore can't do the same thing as a larger bore even with the same shot wieght. It's physically impossible.

This has nothing to do with the energy being equal for the same size pellet launch at the same velocity from a different gauge, it's about patterns. If a target is getting hit with more pellets at the same time, there is no appearance of being hit harder, it is hit harder with more cumulative ft lbs of energy and more tissue damage from more pellet strikes.

You may be getting thousands of target presentations at 20 to 40 yards where you are hunting, I am not. The further my gun can shoot the more opportunities I have when the opportunities overall are few in number.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 22nd of September 2010 06:32:30 PM

Bob · Guru

NH,

I agree, it's the bore size and because of the bore size you get better patterns as a general rule. I agree with you that a 10 bore patterns better than a 12 bore for the long and high shots, if all my shooting was at extreme range for ducks & geese I would use one myself, but we are talkin crows not ducks & geese.

The 10 gauge was banned because it threw superior patterns not because it was more powerful. When you said shoot a 20 gauge and a 10 gauge, both with one ounce loads off the 27 yard line, here again, the 10 gauge throws a better pattern than the 20 gauge from 40 yards and beyond, it has nothing to do with power!

The reason the 20 is outclassed with a 12 gauge is bore size. The 12 gauge simply patterns a lot better wheather it's 1 ounce or 1 1/8th ounce load. Less shot gets jamed together with a larger bore size.

I couldn't agree with you more about "a smaller bore can't do the same thing as a larger bore even with the same shot weight"

You are an interesting guy to talk to, I enjoy it very much.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Thanks Bob, I think the same of you. We have more thoughts in common than not. I'll concede my old 10 bore is not for everyone, it is heavy and will fall behind in a race of how many shots can you shoot in a specified time. Some would consider the effort to load for it a PITA. I like it and it shines at long range. I find a deadfold crow high up and coming straight down is rather satisfying, it gives me something to watch while I reload. biggrin

Bob · Guru

NH,

Once a guy is geared for shooting high birds or far birds it is a very satisfying feeling seeing that bird stone dead in the air, talk about a confidence builder.

It takes me the first several weeks of the season to really get geared for the high birds, you would think a guy would never forget, but as you well know, shooting high birds with any kind of constancy takes practice and a guy gets rusty laying off from one season to the next. Next is having confidence in the firearm and load he is shooting.

Bob A.

Nastygunz · Senior Member

So throwing into the mix of bore size, I have a Mossberg 835 Ultramag in 12 gauge with the overbored barrel...would one surmise that a 12 gauge with a 10 gauge bore is the master or equal of a 10 gauge ? And I agree with Bob, this is an interesting conversation, and unlike many forums, a gentlemanly one also!

From the Mossberg web site:

"In addition, all 835® Ulti-Mag® smooth bore barrels are overbored to 10 gauge bore dimensions, reducing recoil and producing exceptionally uniform patterns from both light and heavy shot charges. "

watch em fall · Senior Member

This discussion only proves what we all know, that is if you know your gun and how it performs it'll take care of you. I don't shoot high volume, but I still like a light gun. If we shoot 40-75 rounds in a morning it is a great day. Plus in Pa 3 shot rule for all shotguns, even for crow! I don't think double gun would be much of a handicap, but I'm not sure I could swing a 10 pound gun. The only reason is because I've never tried to, we run and gun alot sometimes walking in to stand or setup a mile. Every extra pound we can shed, we do. We can all agree if you raise, shoot and drop a crow with any gun it is a special feeling biggrin

.

-- Edited by watch em fall on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 02:36:14 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

If the 835 is 10 ga bore some one with more brain cells than me please explain how a 12 ga wad works in them. I am a mossy fan love em but I don't own a 835. I would think the wad would allow blow by and not seal well. Huh

watch em fall · Senior Member

JD that one is a stumper

I can't wait to hear explanation, but I'm sure there is one

-- Edited by watch em fall on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 03:24:35 AM

Nastygunz · Senior Member

Good question...no idea from here.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=2&display=feat#

835® Overbore (.775) vs. Standard 12 Gauge Bore (.731). For superior pattern performance and reduced felt recoil, each smooth bore 835® barrel (left) is overbored to 10 gauge bore dimensions.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

My guess would be that most wads being plastic are flexible and expand to some degree under the pressures and heat of firing. The concave bottom of the wad is going to cause it to expand like a minnie ball in a muzzle loader.

FWIW Standards for bore sizes were loose when Parker Bros. was in operation. Almost every parker 10ga I am familiar with is overbored. Mine is only slightly at .781. There have been discussions on the Parker website of unaltered barrels going as high as .801. I believe the reason for the disparity it that Parker test fired and worked the barrels of each gun until it threw a desired pattern with a desired shot size.

One of the things you have to watch out for with old doubles is honing/reaming being done in the past to clean up pitting. One has to make sure there is a enough barrel wall thickness to remain safe and serviceable. Collecter/shooter guidelines at .090 minimum for just ahead of the chamber and nothing thinner than .025 as you get down towards the chokes. This guideline applies to damascus/twist and fluid steel.

A very good friend of mine duck and goose hunts with an Mossy 835. One of it's advantages is weight, about 7.5 pounds, carries easy, points nice. One of it's disadvantages is it's weight, 3.5" loads pound the heck out of the shooter, much more so than my BPS 10 which is 9.5lbs. However the Mossy is more flexible with the ability to fire 2 3/4 and 3 shells whereas the BPS is stuck with 3.5" 10's.

I doubt an overbored 12ga is the exact equal of a 10ga for pattern performance with lead shot (steel is another thing) because you still firing a 12ga shell. The shot column of the 12ga shell will still be taller for an equal payload and the pellets subject to more crushing and bore scrub as a result. The proof would be found at the patterning board. Overboring though is generally a good thing, like force cones and long gentle tapered chokes. Parker's as a rule have very gradual chokes running 4 to 3.5 inches in length.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 12:21:18 PM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

NHCS you seem like a sharp guy on these 10 gauges, so hopefully you can answer this.

How long is your shot string at 40 yards with the load you are using?

Thanks John

nhcrowshooter · Guru

John I have not seen a table that provides that information. I know they vary from gun to gun and load to load. Many factors involved. I believe shotgun shot strings have been measured from 6' to over 12' in length. Do you have any reference? Taller shot columns are one factor that lead to longer shot strings from everything I have read. Elmer Keith I believe talked about this in his book. Some interesting discussion found here:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=115197

I do believe pattern density is the most important factor for long range kills. The bigger the bore, generally the better the patterns, due to less scrubbing and crushing of pellets. Also larger bores produce less chamber pressure with the same weight of shot. The three tricks to long range shotgunning, keeping the circle of pellets tight, keeping as many pellets as possible in the circle, and the really tough one, putting the circle of pellets on a flying target smile

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 03:01:49 PM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

Now NHCS you have to admit it is funny that all this stewing over shot string and we do not know if your gun is a 6 foot string or 100% longer at 12 feet. You are in a place where I was about 3 years ago. Keep reading about it online and really look at the studies that show how far a target moves in the time the shot string goes by :)

John

Bob · Guru

The full choke 12 & 20 gauge model 12's had a tapered choke. Boyd said they had (if memory serves me right) a four foot shot string, he aught to know, he was a gunsmith and thats all he worked on from the trap shooters of those days.

I used to marvel at how high he could conk em with his old diamond grade trap gun. On some of the really high birds you would notice a very slight delay between the report of the shotgun and seeing the bird get hit in mid air. Whether this was the shot string or not I will never know for sure to be honest. Boyds theory was when this happened it was due to the bird running into the back end of the shot string when you had a tad to much forward allowence.

Bob A.

Minnesota John · Senior Member

Here is the website and one of the discussions where I finally tossed shot string out of mind:

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=602017&highlight=shot+string

John

Bob · Guru

John,

Thanks for posting refuge forums, it was very interesting.

I never really gave shot string much thought, I just keep my head burried into the comb and keep the damn muzzle moving !

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

John I do not know what my specific gun and reloads produce for length of shot string, I have no way to measure it. What I do know is by shooting a 10 bore, using the SP10 wad (talked about in the link below) and using magnum or hard shot I am doing what I can to make the shortest shot string possible for a 1 1/4 ounce load. I don't know if you are trying to make the argument that a 12ga can do the same thing a 10ga can with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce loads, I can tell you from hands on experience it can't.

This is a book I read some many years ago and forgotten details of. Start at page 275 for info on shotstring testing. I do know the larger the gauge the shorter the shot string with an equal payload and shorter shot strings are important to killing birds with shotguns.

The idea that length of shot string is not that important goes back to testing done in 1923 but as you can see updated analysis of those old results reveal shot string length does matter. The results showed a 30% loss of pattern on a crossing target at 40 yards with an IC and only 13% loss of pattern on the same target with a full choke (which I find very interesting) according to Bob Brister.

http://books.google.com/books?id=z2-ZTxREw2gC&pg=PA275&lpg=PA275&dq=
Brister+shot+string&source=bl&ots=f5Yfyj8F4T&sig=wQlZp3kdniwlJZqeo7tk3Xc67Iw&hl=en&ei=vIqbTI_lBoL68AbCs61y&sa=X&oi=
book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 07:52:23 PM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:

John I do not know what my specific gun and reloads produce for length of shot string, I have no way to measure it.

I don't know if you are trying to make the argument that a 12ga can do the same thing a 10ga can with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce loads, I can tell you from hands on experience it can't.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 23rd of September 2010 05:43:45 PM

NHCS I just wanted to show that the thing being debated (shot string) is not even known.

John

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Actually what I take away from Brister's analysis and test is that a short shot string is desirable, that the same gun with the same load will/can produce a great deal of variation. The emphasis again was the importance of keeping pellets round and free of deformation was essential to short shot strings and tight patterns. A larger bore provides more perfect pellets vs. a smaller bore.

I think when you boil it all down Bob is right, keep your head down and gun moving.

But I do know the bigger the shotgun bore, the targets are hit harder and can be hit further biggrin

Minnesota John · Senior Member

NHCS the next thing to look at is round pellets.

The best patterning shotgun shells today, that win the contest for holding the tightest pattern are Hevi shot.

I have taken a HeviShot and cut it open to check out the pellets. Let me tell you brother those pellets look like someone sweep up a welding shop floor and put the slag in the shell. Just the most deformed pellets you have ever seen.

Now I am banging my head against the wall trying to figure out how the worst shaped pellet can win the best patterning shells year after year. Makes no sense to me:)

John

jd1983 · Senior Member

I do believe that it is more a weight / wad/buffer combo that keeps that hevi shot together I would also bet speed has some thing to do with it also but some of them pellets look like snow men or foot balls.

Mike27 · Senior Member

Weight would have to be at the top for keeping the pattern tight. Anything heavy vs. light will not be effected as much fighting through the air. All other factors being equal.

Mike