Crow Busters Forum

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

RE: 20 ga help

wingmaster · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote: Well to change a subject on this. Heck i shoot rabbits with 20ga open choke 7 1/2 . Dog runs them so close have to make sure u shot for the head part because u will run back legs :)

Switch to number 6 shot . If you buy the inexpensive game loads from Winchester and Remington get the 7/8 ounce loading rather than 1 ounce. They are both 2 1/2 dram which means the 7/8 has a faster M/V and will work better. I speak from experience but don't use a 20 that much anymore.

7/8 #6 shot out of a 20ga at 1100 fps or better is death on crows. With lead shot faster is not alway better as the pellets are easily deformed and patterns blown if you try to shoot them too fast. The old high brass Winchester Super-X Double X number 6 was a hot load in a 20ga for ducks back in the day. That was a 1 ounce load at 1220 fps. Again the 2 1/2 dram 7/8 will punch a crow out very efficiently at the ranges you are talking about.

Reloading is the way to go. It saves money, let's you tailor loads and is a nice way to pass the time while you daydream of crow hunts to come.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 06:35:14 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

wingmaster wrote:

nhcrowshooter wrote: Well to change a subject on this. Heck i shoot rabbits with 20ga open choke 7 1/2 . Dog runs them so close have to make sure u shot for the head part because u will run back legs :)

Switch to number 6 shot . If you buy the inexpensive game loads from Winchester and Remington get the 7/8 ounce loading rather than 1 ounce. They are both 2 1/2 dram which means the 7/8 has a faster M/V and will work better. I speak from experience but don't use a 20 that much anymore.

7/8 #6 shot out of a 20ga at 1100 fps or better is death on crows. With lead shot faster is not alway better as the pellets are easily deformed and patterns blown if you try to shoot them too fast. The old high brass Winchester Super-X Double X number 6 was a hot load in a 20ga for ducks back in the day. That was a 1 ounce load at 1220 fps. Again the 2 1/2 dram 7/8 will punch a crow out very efficiently at the ranges you are talking about.

Reloading is the way to go. It saves money, let's you tailor loads and is a nice way to pass the time while you daydream of crow hunts to come.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 4th of November 2010 06:35:14 PM

wingmaster, you are wright about 1100 fps i do reload ALL my shotgun loads(1000's a year) my 20 ga 7/8ths are 1170 and are "death on crows" i do patterns often on all the loads i shoot. i love my Full choked 20

Bob · Guru

I have tried both, 6's ,7 1/2's and 8's out of the 20 gauge, thats all I shot on crows for over 16 years straight. During those years I shot a little over 50,000 crows with the 20 gauge alone. I tried 1 ounce loads and 7/8th ounce loads and stuck with the 7/8th ounce load of # 8's for many years. The # 8's performed much better for me than the 7 1/2's and 6's.

The best shoots that I can remember off hand were 500, 486 and 526 using # 8's out of a full choke 20 gauge 870 Remington Wing Master. This was just me alone but I had one other with Boyd Robeson where both of us were using 20 gauge model 12 Winchesters bored full choke. In one day and in one spot we shot 859 crows using a 7/8th ounce load of # 9's. Now to be fair the birds were pretty soft on that shoot and the greater bulk of them were killed within 30 yards that day.

If you have a high percentage using 6's out of a 20 gauge thats just fine but I doubt it is fine for most of the population. I found just the opposite using 8's and 9's out of the 20 gauge.

70% plus is very good if you are taking them as they come, not just picking the soft shots. If I have em coming just one or two at a time and it isn't to windy outside I can maintain a high average, it's when I have to hubba bubba trying to wipe em all out 3 or sometimes 4 at a time is where the average suffers greatly.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

This is the first year I have used a 2 7/8" 10ga with 1 1/4 ounce 6. A real confidence builder for sure on the long shots. It's been a fun gun.

Prior to this I used 1 1/8 and 1 ounce of number 6 out of 12 ga and 7/8 of number 6 in my 20's. In the 12 and 20 I found the sixes to be a surer stopper than 7.5's and 8's.
I do shoot tight chokes, I like seeing plumes of feathers.

You don't have to believe my results are any different or better just give the number 6 loads a try over the course of a season and see if day in and day out you don't see good results. If you don't like them you can stop using them. You can't shoot a just a few to make a judgement you have to really use them for awhile to be able to compare.

Yes I would guess that 80% use a 12ga, it is the most common gauge and I don't doubt most people use 7.5 and 8's. The question is why do they choose that? Generally it's because 4 pack promotional loads from Winchester and Federal are both less expensive and more readily available. Remington STS and Winchester AA, less expensive and more available than quality game loads in #6.

The Remington Game Loads which I affectionately refer to as Black Beauties don't seem to perform very well at all, I suspect their low cost is achieved with soft lead shot as they don't perform as well as my reloaded trap loads with hard/magnum #6 shot used instead of 7.5 and 8.

PS. I do not own stock in the company producing #6 lead shot. I have nothing to gain here except to share my experience.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 7th of November 2010 05:46:57 PM

wingmaster · Senior Member

I do use 6 shot for rabbits with cyl bore in 20ga. Just have make sure dogs away from the rabbit before i shoot. Rabbits come right at me so i trun and fire. I do know now dog is out of way than. But when i go to tall grass fields i go with 7 1/2 go more pellets to go thouh the tall grass than :) But than this is rabbit hunting. I do use 7 1/2 full choke 20ga my self on crows. But i do not shoot a lot of them either ;) I have to save money and let bob take me out and smoke my barrel off . Heck i think i bring both of them 12 and 20 ;)

jd1983 · Senior Member

I choose the smaller shot for my way of thinking is that #6 has 250+-
and 8 shot has 450+- in a 1-1/8 oz load
Now take a 30 inch circle that's let's just say your pattern at the average crow shot range.
Now full choke will put 75-90+-% in that at 40 yds
Each choke puts less % as you open up in choke so let's say you shoot #6 in mod choke and it puts 60% "just for numbers look em up online for exact numbers " so out of 250 pellets 150 are in that circle where you are aiming. Now if you are using #8 60% of 450 that would be like 270 pellets in that same circle. Yes the other pellets are around that circle. But I am with bob hit em with multi pellets rather than try and hit em with less.

O yeah to get the same pellet count in #6 that you get from 1-1/8 oz load of #8 you would need 2 oz of #6 to get the same count.

This is all in lead not steel.

-- Edited by jd1983 on Sunday 7th of November 2010 10:03:22 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

JD1983, the results are counterintuitive but by using number 6 shot vs. 7.5 or 8 you will have more dead crows per shells fired and more crips that need finishing on average. More crips is not indicative of worse performance by the #6 loads.

It would be great if we could center every hit bird and it would be great if every bird centered was hit the same way and places. That doesn't happen. Hunters in general try to compare results of rifles and shotguns and their effect. A shotgun is an imprecise tool, it's not about killing every bird dead on impact, it's about knocking them out of the sky.

Birds that are hit by the edge of a pattern or hit on rear part of their bodies or hit at long range have a better chance of not continuing their fight if hit by a few big pellets. In these cases you have to break a bone, or create enough tissue damage to muscles and organs to bring them down. They will not have been hit with enough small pellets or hit in the right place to be brought down by traumatic shock, they will be brought down by a broken wing bone or hydraulic shock and muscle failure. Punched twice is better than pushed six times.

It is hard for a shooter to see or hear the impact of pellets on a bird because of the noise and recoil of a gun. A lot of birds people using small shot or open chokes at longer ranges are being hit but they show no visible sign of it. The small shot due to it's lower energy has even less chance to pull feathers. The shooter is led to believe they goofed up and missed.

If you were to extend your theory of more pellets being best why not use 10's or 12's (they make it). I am not trying to be a smart alack by suggesting that. Why didn't hunters use 7.5's for decoying geese and 9's for decoying ducks back in the day? Why are 9's less effective for trapshooting, more pellets would be hitting the clay pigeon and you only have to break it in half to be scored. It is easy to be fooled into thinking the small shot is really crushing them because when they are well centered they are. It's about what happens when they are not centered or hit at longer range. With the 6's you can start to think you have too many birds needed to be finished. This is why you have to measure performance by the number of birds you killed, dead or needing finishing vs. shells fired and do it over the course of a season or a lot of birds to make a comparison.

Bigger is always better when it comes to projectiles as long as there are enough projectiles in the pattern. There are enough #6 pellets in 7/8 ounce loads used in tight choke patter to kill crows throughout the range of a shotgun. Maybe I'll talk to my partner about outlining the body of a crow and shooting it with 7/8 of #6 at 40 yards so you can see. I'll bet he'll do it. and we can take a picture of it if he does.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 7th of November 2010 11:03:48 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

You ask why not 9-10-12 shot? Because they are not lethal enough at the 30-40 yes mark ( I know bob you used 9 shot) but let me ask you why not 5-4-2 shot? Why not call them in close and not worry bout them long sky busting shots?

nhcrowshooter · Guru

jd1983 wrote:

You ask why not 9-10-12 shot? Because they are not lethal enough at the 30-40 yes mark ( I know bob you used 9 shot) but let me ask you why not 5-4-2 shot? Why not call them in close and not worry bout them long sky busting shots?

As I pointed out in the last paragraph of my last post you want to use the largest pellet possible with enough pellets to make multiple hits throughout the entire effective range of a shotgun.  Concerns about a pattern being too thin for a crow are valid especially with 2's.

I do not consider a soft angle 40 to 50 yard bird to be a questionably long, skybusting or particularly difficult shot especially with a 10 or 12 bore. Skill level is a factor. (Skybusting is taking shots that are beyond the effective range of the gun and load, when I think of skybusting I think about all the guys I see every year shooting at ducks and geese that are 80, 90 even 100+ yards away, they do it every year).

Hitting reasonably long 40 to 55 yard birds consistently takes practice. You can learn it by shooting from the 27 yard line in trap, learning to shoot 2nd birds in trap doubles, long shots on a sporting clays course and by trying to hit crows at that range.   With the crows you want the most effective load at that range, you have to do better than just break a clay pigeon into 2 or 3 pieces.

I always try to take the first shot as close as possible, we all should do that, but what about the birds that don't commit but are still in shotgun range, they happen to everyone. What about 2nd and 3rd shots after the first. They are often longer. Are you satisfied not feeling you are able to engage that target or using a less effective load on it?

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 01:15:29 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

O I engage them and take some out I don't just take fluffer shots.

Mike27 · Senior Member

NH,
You wrote " to use the largest pellet possible with enough pellets to make multiple hits throughout the entire effective range of a shotgun".
Just the opposite, use the smallest to still be effective. Fill up that pattern. 6 shot and a tight choke does not leave alot of room for error.

Mike

nhcrowshooter · Guru

And I should have added shoot all year long and practice to minimize your errors. Under that theory I should buy some bismuth 7.5's and start shooting geese.

I believe it was Bob Brister who shot duck carcasses or referenced shooting duck carcasses with 7.5 shot at 40 or 45 yards. The penetration was meager and insufficient to create traumatic shock. Pellets were stuck in the skin. Crows and ducks are different but the lack of penetration by a small pellet at that range is the same.

A pattern can be filled two ways, more pellets or tighter choke (or both). Full choke is the most lethal choke at all ranges provided the birds are centered or close to centered. Brister had a table showing this in his book as well.

Again what is good for a more capable shooter is not necessarily good for all.

Mike27 wrote:

NH,
You wrote " to use the largest pellet possible with enough pellets to make multiple hits throughout the entire effective range of a shotgun".
Just the opposite, use the smallest to still be effective. Fill up that pattern. 6 shot and a tight choke does not leave alot of room for error.

Mike

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 01:54:33 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

enough is enough on shot size urghhhh cant we all just get along

Skip · Guru

nhc: I have enjoyed this entire thread... but creditability was lost... somewhat at least, when you said "Crows and ducks are different but the lack of penetration by a small pellet at that range is the same." Are you saying here that a crow's feathers and a duck's feathers are equally difficult when it comes to shot penetration?

Skip

Big Honkers · Guru

#6's VS #7 1/2 & #8's =

We can talk about this all day long but shot placement is paramount to everything. THAT, my friends, is what will drive a TBC more than shot size.

SHANEDOG · Guru

BH, has hit this one on the nose!!!!! or ah the dead horse!!

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

Big Honkers wrote:

#6's VS #7 1/2 & #8's =

no no. not yet, stop the presses, pattern test to follow soon.

We can talk about this all day long but shot placement is paramount to everything. THAT, my friends, is what will drive a TBC more than shot size.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip I am starting to wonder if this is how Capernicus felt when he offered his theory that the Earth was not the center of the universe. There seems to be an emotional attachment to small shot on crows.

I know there are differences between species but as you know there are early season birds and late season birds. Even the same species is differs during the year. My point being there have been penetration tests done on birds (but not crows that I know of). Small shot just can't penetrate whatever is shot at as larger shot, it's just physics. The lack of penetration on one species of bird certainly opens the question what is the penetration on another. You certainly would not argue that a 7.5 will penetrate deeper than an 8. The question is which pellet size is better at longer range (because they are all good at shorter range). I believe #6 is better for it's retained energy. However you need to keep a tight pattern and the shooter needs to learn how handle a target in flight at closer range with the tight pattern as well.

As I have demonstrated in the pattern test post, even a 20ga gun can throw a tight pattern of #6 shot capable of downing a crow at 40 yards with room to spare. The bird would be hit with plenty of pellets to induce traumatic shock and bigger pellets capable of bone breaks and inducing hydraulic shock as well. Given this why would any of us want to shoot a less effective load at the longer ranges?

Skip wrote:

nhc: I have enjoyed this entire thread... but creditability was lost... somewhat at least, when you said "Crows and ducks are different but the lack of penetration by a small pellet at that range is the same." Are you saying here that a crow's feathers and a duck's feathers are equally difficult when it comes to shot penetration?

Skip

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 09:47:25 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Big Honkers wrote:

We can talk about this all day long but shot placement is paramount to everything. THAT, my friends, is what will drive a TBC more than shot size.

You can place your shot perfectly but if your pellets lack the energy they need your target will survive.

SHANEDOG wrote:

BH, has hit this one on the nose!!!!! or ah the dead horse!!

Parachutes and minds.......both need to be open to work biggrin

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 09:50:29 PM

SHANEDOG · Guru

Well NH
I do have an open mind,but this issue has been around since the forum was started. Who cares,what shot I use or you use?? Have at it,while we are on the subject I like Italian Autoloaders,I like my guns camo or military black,I hate wood!!
And I personally cant see why someone would shoot a old 10 gauge shot gun and a double to boot!! Should you care?? Hell no!!! I am a varmint hunter my job is to kill as many crows or coyotes as I can for the farmer!! Remember him???
I shoot autos because I have handicaps,and with my calling,blind building and other skills most of my crows come in close,and I can still take some at 55-60 yards using #8 shot with a full choke in my Franchi 20 gauge,do I wound some?Ofcourse, coyotes and bobcats need to eat also.
Now that said I believe Bob,was out of line with his comments about your area,scouting,and other stuff.Most of us on here just do not have the time or money to spend scouting for large groups of crows. So we are stuck shooting our own little areas. I value a post from our southern freinds who may not have the numbers and may get two or three a day,as much as a post with 400 hundred killed.
Life is short lets not waste it arguing about shot size,just as long as we are abusting crows. Shane

nhcrowshooter · Guru

SHANEDOG wrote:

Well NH
I do have an open mind,but this issue has been around since the forum was started. Who cares,what shot I use or you use?? Have at it,while we are on the subject I like Italian Autoloaders,I like my guns camo or military black,I hate wood!!
And I personally cant see why someone would shoot a old 10 gauge shot gun and a double to boot!! Should you care?? Hell no!!! I am a varmint hunter my job is to kill as many crows or coyotes as I can for the farmer!! Remember him???
I shoot autos because I have handicaps,and with my calling,blind building and other skills most of my crows come in close,and I can still take some at 55-60 yards using #8 shot with a full choke in my Franchi 20 gauge,do I wound some?Ofcourse, coyotes and bobcats need to eat also.
Now that said I believe Bob,was out of line with his comments about your area,scouting,and other stuff.Most of us on here just do not have the time or money to spend scouting for large groups of crows. So we are stuck shooting our own little areas. I value a post from our southern freinds who may not have the numbers and may get two or three a day,as much as a post with 400 hundred killed.
Life is short lets not waste it arguing about shot size,just as long as we are abusting crows. Shane

Shane I don't really care which shot size you use, my point is some do work better than others with the right choke.

As far as using the ol' 10 bore. I use it cause I like doubleguns and it really is a blast. I believe if you and I were to share a blind and you see what it is capable of you might be asking to try it, and I would let you.

Sadly the only farmers I know are in my memory. Hard to believe southern NH could have changed so much in so short a time.

I freqeuntly shoot an 1100 trap gun. Auto's are great guns.

Thank you for your other kind words of support.

It is all about busting crows. I am not carrying on about this to bust anything else including your anatomy. I am trying to offer advice based on experience and testing to help others increase the size of their pile of dead crows. Practice with the shotgun comes first, but once that is mastered the choke and load can be used to optimize the skill of the gunner on our favorite targets.

PS. The symbolism of your avatar is priceless smile

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 8th of November 2010 11:32:50 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Nh shale we not agree on each point of view on shot type and both wave the white flag. It comes down to man and gun plain and simple. You enjoy #6 as I like #7.5 by choice I do have some #6 loaded up for winter cause I had the shot got it for free and I hunt the same birds threw the winter and they tend to get smart and hang back some.

I was not trying to insult your guys skills in any way but we should let people who are new the pros and cons and let them make there own opinion.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

No insult taken. If you go back to the original posters question it was what to do about his sense that his shells lacked the punch needed for the shots he was taking or going to take in the future. I told him to try some number 6 shot.................same thing you are doing.

I agree with you last statement entirely. To make an informed opinion one benefits from hearing input from competing ideas not just the company line so to speak.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 9th of November 2010 08:09:01 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

jd1983 wrote:

Nh shale we not agree on each point of view on shot type and both wave the white flag. It comes down to man and gun plain and simple. You enjoy #6 as I like #7.5 by choice I do have some #6 loaded up for winter cause I had the shot got it for free and I hunt the same birds threw the winter and they tend to get smart and hang back some.

I was not trying to insult your guys skills in any way but we should let people who are new the pros and cons and let them make there own opinion.

i like the white flag idea too

jd1983 · Senior Member

White flag has been waived

For now ;) I am still gonna run a test just cause I can

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

jd1983 wrote:

White flag has been waived

For now ;) I am still gonna run a test just cause I can

HMM , i wonder what kind of test? keep us posted hmm

jd1983 · Senior Member

Do not fear it will be one sided and I will only show you 8 shot patterns from 25 yards and 6 shot from 50;).

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

jd1983 wrote:

Do not fear it will be one sided and I will only show you 8 shot patterns from 25 yards and 6 shot from 50;).

unlike mine (lol)wright? i hope?

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Tuesday 9th of November 2010 10:42:47 PM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Hey I may learn something and change my ways.