Crow Busters Forum

Today it's for use when shooting crows under a wildlife depradation permit. I suspect soon it will apply to shooting crows during the regular hunting season.

http://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2010/12/02/2010-30288/migratory-bird-permits-removal-of-rusty-blackbird-and-tamaulipas-mexican-crow-from-the-depredation




"The requirement for nontoxic shot in depredation control or in hunting is already applied unevenly; nontoxic shot is not required for all migratory bird hunting. However, we are concerned about lead poisoning of migratory birds, and will seek to apply nontoxic shot requirement more evenly by implementing the use of nontoxic shot as we consider revisions to the current regulations."


-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 20th of February 2011 08:49:11 PM

Well thanks for the info,  I hope i never see it, that would totally curve my interest in shooting crows,  this country is going to hell fast,, i think i would have just kept shooting lead and take my chances, Too many tree huggers out there!!!

NHCrow wrote:

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I already buy steel by the case, and I usually have a bunch leftover at the end of the season. Using my current duck loads for crows will just make me a better duckhunter. The only downside will be on the days I go through 3 boxes of shells. That is gonna be painful....

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How do you think that it will make you a better duck hunter?  Without a doubt the more you shoot the better shot you should become but there is no difference in how one shoots a flying a target with it.  The speed difference has been proven inconsequential to lead on a moving target.  Yes it will be painful on days you go through 3 boxes of shells , and painful for seasons where you go through 1000 rounds or more.  It also eliminates using antique guns which for some of us really sucks.  Given the volume of shooting barrel friendly non-tox such as bismuth is not a an option.

Not to pick you on you but it is the general apathy and rationalization displayed in statements such as it will make me a better duck hunter, I already use it etc etc is how we as sportsman lose rights to junk science and anti-hunters.

If sportsman stood united in the face a total lead ban and said go ahead do it and we wont't buy a hunting license this year wildlife agencies would take notice and think twice because they could not operate with such a great loss of revenue.  Most of us would never do that because we enjoy hunting so much we will put up with such a mandate  and the loss of freedom, economic injury and sub par performance of steel loads just to go hunting. 

Well said,Pete!!!A lot of people do not understand how the PROGRESSIVE movement works,they chip away one piece at a time,then you wake up one day and you wonder what happened. Look at schools,your daughter can get birth control,and some cases an abortion without you having to know,but she cant pray or have a tee shirt that says JESUS LOVES YOU. I see the same apathy with some hunters attitude with my using an AR-15 for hunting,they do not see,that if they let polititions outlaw some types of guns,the polititions will not stop when it comes to thier favorite fire arm.

NHCrow wrote:

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Excellent point! So where were all the sportsmen when they banned lead for waterfowl? I wasn't hunting at the time so I can't say what my opinion would have been at the time, but the way I understood it ducks and geese were dying due to ingesting lead shot. So USFWS banned lead shot. Sounds to me like hunters were ok with saving waterfowl populations. Since I hunt crows in a lot of the same locations where I hunt waterfowl, I figured this was coming. I personally feel that this is not an attack on the 2nd ammendment so I don't see the need to contact my congressman. I view this as the USFWS trying to protect and preserve our wildlife.

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Do you really believe that across the USA lead poisoning of waterfowl was a BIG mortality factor?  I have been duck hunting since '74 so I have shot ducks with lead. There is no substitute for it in performance.  I believe more ducks today are shot and lost due to the inferior ballistics of steel shot and sportsman continue to shoot until they fill their bag resulting in more dead ducks.

Hunters were not OK with it I assure you.  We were simply rolled over by the bureacracy.  Waterfowl hunters were small in number compared to say deer hunters.  It did result in a rapid decline of duck stamp sales, in the first couple of years following.  I have friends who were older and gave up duck hunting as a result.  Wildlife agencies felt the pinch in decreased sales but 20+ years have gone by and those biologists and bureacrats have retired.  The new ones don't have the corporate memory and the come from college where being green is the be all end all.  The harder and more expensive they make it to go hunting the fewer people go hunting.

There is no economical ballisic equavilent to lead, not in shot and not in bullets.  You may not view as an attack on your 2nd amendment rights but it is an attack none the less on your hunting rights. You yourself mentioned how much more it will cost you to shoot non-tox ammo.  It is also short sighted and foolish wildlife management as such a law is certainly going to negatively affect participation in hunting which in turn takes money away from wildlife agencies.  Agencies already struggling to deal with a decline in license sales. 

BTW the job of the wildlife agencies is to "conserve" wildlife not "preserve".  Conserve means wise use of wildlife for our benefit, preserve means no human use of the resource allowed.  Beware of the "Preservationists".

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 22nd of February 2011 05:59:39 PM

NHCrow wrote:

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I honestly don't know about lead being a BIG mortality factor. Like I said, I wasn't around before Non-Tox. I have a hard time believing that the FWS wants to end hunting though.

Your point about conservation vs preservation is very well made. 

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Think in terms of government bureacrats who have to justify their existence, who want to do something or be part of movement that enhances their career or their ego.  Think in terms of the movement to be green and save the planet.  Think about anti hunting groups who sign on and support such initiatives because they know it help stymy participation in the shooting sports. Banning lead has a visceral response similiar to save the whales, but by and large it's questionable science.  If you are outdoors a lot how often do you come across sick wildlife?  The way the anti-lead crowd speaks we should be tripping over lead poisoned scavengers.  

Big government just keeps getting bigger and justifying what it does.  Think in terms of the EPA being concerned about the exhaust from lawnmowers.  I am old enough to remember a more polluted environment but the pendulum has swung to far. I really do believe if the EPA came into existence in 1870 the US would be a third world country.

As far as the FWS supporting hunting, some working there do and others don't.  I worked at a state wildlife agency at one time.  Some there were passionate about huntinng and fishing, others just viewed it as a good government job, and then there were others who should have been working for Audobon or the Humane Society. 

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 22nd of February 2011 06:37:35 PM

Pete (NHCROW SHTR)
Is right,look at the wolf issue,it and the polar bear now have thier own civil rights,in some of the western states,the wolf has been delisted,much to the consternation of the tree huggers,who look to the wolf as a god!!! You have to wonder if the wolfs depletion of the elk and other species is part of the end game,to list those prey animals as endangered.If endangered you cant hunt them,if you cant hunt them,well why do you need to have a gun?? Chip away!!

Thanks GB for looking into it further. Let us know anything more you find out even if it only applies to TX.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 23rd of February 2011 03:19:09 PM

GB I have hunted crows on a state issued permit but not Federal. Keep us updated.

I have also hunted under a state issued depredation permit

I never even heard of a depradation permit in NY, I'm sure they probably exist, but I just hunt under the regular crow season rules. That being said I've been stopped by NY ENCON while hunting over a river, & asked if I needed non-tox while shooting over water, he didn't really know, but took my # and called me back after checking it out & said no. I even went as far as reading the clean waters act (boring) & could find nothing. Jerry




















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