Crow Busters Forum

nhcrowshooter · Guru

65 yard pattern test - 6 vs. 7.5

8fishermen · Guru

So does that mean that 6's fly more true than 7 1/2's when all things are equal or that this gun patterns 6's better that 7 1/2's?

Either way, Nice pattern.

I would like to see more pattterns of the same loads from the same gun at shorter distances also. Would be intresting to compare if they start of patterning the same and the 7 1/2's core degrades faster.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

ok before you start hammering on me how my test was done, this is what it did. i paced off 65 yds(with a range finder i am with in 2 yds at that range) than i shot from a rest and use a 1914 12 ga trojan with the left barrel choked at .041( .030 to.035 is full). any one shooting mod or .022 + -- would shoot more open, imp cyl good luck!! well there you go what do you say now about pellet count. i have shot alot of test and like i said a few months back i found 6' s always shot tighter !!! most people think there killing crow better with the smaller, but until you try both for your self you would not say" smaller kills better!" i have gone back again for a few test with 7 1/2's and they just don't break down the birds enough with a hit like bigger shot. i started to shoot some 5's as of late and boy do they crush them. and my % of hits went up wow "that should not work that way" no pellet count. well next test at 65 yds with 1 1/4 oz 6's with the crow crushing 10 ga. thanks 10ga.

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 10:12:27 PM

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 10:13:00 PM

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 10:13:49 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

you got, i will do more test soon!!! 10 ga

nhcrowshooter · Guru

His choice of which gun to use was totally random and it surprised me. Obviously no two guns perform the same way. However, I did not expect to see only two pellet advantage to load starting out with almost a 150 more. Says something about the importance of the hot core at extended range, and as I stated usually the same gun/choke produces tighter patterns as the shot size increases.

8fishermen · Guru

T

I am not trying to beat you up. I am genuinely interested in which is a better long distance load. If you can prove that 6's are superior to 7 1/2's I will buy a loader and start stuffing my own as you can't buy quality 6 shot loads. I am just interested if the patterns were of similar size and density at closer ranges. If they are, that means the 6's fly more true than the 7 1/2's at long ranges.

Please forgive me if I offended you. I am like a bulldog when it comes to knowledge of a specific subject I am interested in. I CANT let it go till all the stones have been overturned and the best possible ansewer has been reached. It drives my poor wife crazy.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

8fishermen wrote:

T
I am not trying to beat you up. I am genuinely interested in which is a better long distance load. If you can prove that 6's are superior to 7 1/2's I will buy a loader and start stuffing my own as you can't buy quality 6 shot loads. I am just interested if the patterns were of similar size and density at closer ranges. If they are, that means the 6's fly more true than the 7 1/2's at long ranges.

Please forgive me if I offended you. I am like a bulldog when it comes to knowledge of a specific subject I am interested in. I CANT let it go till all the stones have been overturned and the best possible ansewer has been reached. It drives my poor wife crazy.

do what i started to do about 3 years ago when i picked up my 1st 10 ga. shoot your own patterns. i would not make statments like" smaller shot works better" until i try all sizes! than i find the best and i pass on my info to others, not for a fight but to help people KILL more birds and shoot shells they know will kill better. loading your own and shooting a 122 year old gun gives you goose bumps when you drop a long crossing shot or a high over head shot!!

thanks 10 ga

8fishermen · Guru

All I have to go by is my experience and what I can glean form others. So far my experience is smaller kills more but i do not have access to quality 6 shot loads so for the time being I must live vicariously though those that do. I do shoot lots of patterns. I have a pattern board in the back yard. I shot some today as a matter of fact. I will continue to shoot patterns till I find what works best. So far, best is 7 1/2's, but I could be persuaded to "join the dark side" it you keep posting patterns like the one above. biggrin

Skip · Guru

nhcs: Were both of the loads used... reloads? When you mentioned the use of "magnum" shot, I tend to think so. I would love to see what a factory Nitro 27 load in 7 1/2's will do vs. your #6 reload! I think we all have an open mind here and I admire your dedication and past experiences and confidence in #6's. It is both hard to argue with your long term results but equally hard to argue with the long term results others reportusing smaller shot. I think we have a "Chevy vs. Ford" situation here. smile

Most of us are using relatively new pumps or semi-autos with interchangeable chokes. None of these guns come with a full choke as tight at .041. And I wonder how many of us would be able to hit that kami-kazi crow at 20 yards with such a choke. I wonder how realistic your testing is.. with a 100 year old gun using a fixed .041 constriction? I hasten to say, I am no where near "beating up" on your test or tester. All of your comments and observations only serve to educate everyone. Please continue. It does seem now, that the conversation is on shot effectiveness at ranges very few would attempt.

Skip

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

as far as shooting small shot alot of the shooters have not even shot bigger shot and have nothen to go by to see what works better. and at 20 yds i showed that imp cyl and full are only 2 inches differant in size dia. i think 20 in. across and 22 in. across,so choke at 20 yds and under makes little differance . and shot size 20 yds and under don't make a differance either. so WHY NOT shoot bigger for a win win, at 10 yds to 65 yds. it is JUST cheaper to shoot 71/2 and 8 off the self shells unless you reload. that is why not because they are better ( smaller shot) just try a box and SEE FOR YOUR SELF, 10 ga.

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Thursday 10th of March 2011 11:53:53 PM

8fishermen · Guru

Just had a brain storm. Can we pool all our resources and pattern test to see if a load rises to the top that will be a uniform performer at distances from 0 - 65 yards? We could come up with standard range test and then shoot different loads through our individual guns and see what happens. All data could be compiled at the end of the test and we might find a load is suitable for all. It would at least give a newcomer a good selection of starting loads and who knows what it may do for all of us.

Example

Everyone pattern Nitro 27's at 20,30,40,50, and 60 yards and see where the patterns lead us. That is a load that is easy to come by and everyone seem to refer to as the standard. As we progress we could get deeper into hand loads and such.

The data could then be complied and we would have a bench mark. From there we could compare all other loads to the benchmark and by next season we would have some loads that we could then experiment with on live birds. Shooter's percentages could be individually tracked and the 6's and 7 1/2's could be interchanged on different hunts to see which kills most effectively with the fewest cripples.

OK, What do y'all think?

-- Edited by 8fishermen on Friday 11th of March 2011 12:48:51 AM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

I suspect 10ga crowshooter has gone to bed as he has to be at work very early in the morning. Yes both shells were reloads I am sure, identical components except for shot size. Since we both buy our reloading supplies at the same place I am certain both shells contained magnum shot.

As far as realistic due to a 100 year old gun, I am admittedly not up to speed on more modern guns, my tastes lie elsewhere, but I believe there are variety of high performance aftermarket choke tubes for modern guns, Jellyhead etc. I have 3 Remington trap guns with fixed full chokes, 1 870 and 2 1100's, their chokes are .039 to .041. I might add that I know we are quite unusual in our choice of guns, twist/damascus 2 7/8" 10 bore doubles makes us pretty unique (and damn effective too). Our fluid steel 12ga doubles that are 100 years old are out of the norm too. There is however nothing stopping you from joining us by getting a couple of these great old guns yourself. The gun used in the test can be found fairly easy for under $1000.

A Kami-Kazi crow in close is a tough shot for any shooter and gun. If the blind and camo is good most of the time they are well decoyed and not all that tough a shot. Skip your an accomplished shooter, how many birds do you give up on a skeet field with a tight choke out of 25 vs. a skeet choke, two to four birds maybe. What do you gain in the field by having a greater cone of effective fire to go after the birds that don't fully commit or 2nd and 3rd shots on birds hightailing it out after the first shot. I think you gain more than you give up.

Maybe it is Chevy vs. Ford, but at long range the #6 is a big diesel and the other a V6 biggrin

Frankly I did not expect the pellet count to be so close between these two loads at 65 yards. It's counterintuitive, I learned something too. Up until now the debate was based on subjective opinion and theory that smaller shot would deliver more pellets in a 30" circle at extended range by simple virtue of having more pellets in the load. Sometimes facts get in the way of theory.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 11th of March 2011 12:55:32 AM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8fishermen wrote:

T
I am not trying to beat you up. I am genuinely interested in which is a better long distance load. If you can prove that 6's are superior to 7 1/2's I will buy a loader and start stuffing my own as you can't buy quality 6 shot loads. I am just interested if the patterns were of similar size and density at closer ranges. If they are, that means the 6's fly more true than the 7 1/2's at long ranges.

Please forgive me if I offended you. I am like a bulldog when it comes to knowledge of a specific subject I am interested in. I CANT let it go till all the stones have been overturned and the best possible ansewer has been reached. It drives my poor wife crazy.

You should buy the reloader anyway, first I find reloading a relaxing past time, second I save a little money, and finally I can create my own loads tailored to the gun and or job at hand. Reloading enhances my pleasure of shotgunning.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 11th of March 2011 08:33:35 AM

Troy Seal · Senior Member

I did a test on turkey loads several years ago. I shot all patterns at a measured 50 yards. I used winchester supreme high velocity loads with 2 oz. of shot in #4s #5s and #6s. (With that particular choke shell and gun) I got more #5s in a 30" circle than #4s or #6s. It is common knowledge that small shot spreads faster. Thats why guys shoot #9s and #8s at skeet and trap shooters shoot 7.5s most of the time. I shoot nitro 27s 90% of the time but if the 1 1/8 oz #6s factory loads had good hard shot in them like the nitro 27s I would shoot them, but they dont. Most of the upland loads dont have hard shot in them.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8fishermen wrote:

Just had a brain storm. Can we pool all our resources and pattern test to see if a load rises to the top that will be a uniform performer at distances from 0 - 65 yards?

My thoughts; the top performer will be a combination of gauge, choke and shot size. When the criteria requires a load to be able to consistently perform (capable on average of killing a crow) out to 65 yards you have stacked the deck in favor of large bore, tight choke and bigger shot. The 20's and 16's are probably out of that race. 50 to 65 yards shots are long pokes for all us. If the birds are within the last 15 yards of the criteria, 50 to 65 yds I know I would prefer to be shooting one of my tight choke 10's.

Skip although Remmy Nitro 27 seems to be your favorite the most coveted round used by 27 yard shooters I know are Federal papers. You ever use them?

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 11th of March 2011 08:53:00 AM

8fishermen · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:

8fishermen wrote:

Just had a brain storm. Can we pool all our resources and pattern test to see if a load rises to the top that will be a uniform performer at distances from 0 - 65 yards?
My thoughts; the top performer will be a combination of gauge, choke and shot size. When the criteria requires a load to be able to consistently perform (capable on average of killing a crow) out to 65 yards you have stacked the deck in favor of large bore, tight choke and bigger shot. The 20's and 16's are probably out of that race. 50 to 65 yards shots are long pokes for all us. If the birds are within the last 15 yards of the criteria, 50 to 65 yds I know I would prefer to be shooting one of my tight choke 10's.
Skip although Remmy Nitro 27 seems to be your favorite the most coveted round used by 27 yard shooters I know are Federal papers. You ever use them?

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 11th of March 2011 08:53:00 AM

Yes we are stacking the deck towards the larger bore guns. But we are talking about LONG shots and I don't know anyone that would take a 20 knowing the shooting was going to be in the 50+ range. The 10 may pattern the 6's better across the board or maybe not. The 12 may pattern the 7 1/2's better or maybe not. The point of the experiment would be to see what happens across the board with a variety of shot and gauges. If we all ended up with two pet loads in two different shot sizes, we could compare the two on alternating days through the season. Then we would have actual data to compare. As of now all we have is paper and opinion. I like data.

Shooter skill could be factored in with the kill to hull ratio and a brief description of the shot distance/difficulty. 6's may work better for more skilled shooters or visa versa. We would all have individual data to look at at the end off the test period and would have commutative data to compile at the end.

I believe one shot size would rise to the top. All gauges could enter as we may be surprised at the data they all produce.

A spreadsheet could be made and emailed to everyone to keep up with the data.

Some catagories could be...

Date
Weather conditions (sun, partly cloudy, rain, snow.whatever)
Temp
wind speed
location
Shells fired
Birds killed
average Difficulty of shooting (1-5) one easiest - 5 hardest
Shot size used
Choke
speed of load
size of load
Gauge

With that kind of record keeping, it would be simple and top performers would appear quickly.

Come on guys, add to this. I think this would be very enlightening to all who participate and for all who are to come.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Rest assured, 10 bores pattern better on average with all shot sizes. It's the efficency of the larger bore; lower pressures, less crushing and scrubbing of pellets. 10's were banned from both trap shooting and the live pigeon ring because of their dominance even after being handicapped with more yardage against the 12ga guns. The idea being tournaments are a test of the shooters skill and a man with a 10 has an edge. The performance of #6 shot being superior was already known to a few of us, we are sharing it with you. However to benefit from it one must reload or spring for the expensive factory stuff like Winchester Super-X loads.

Some of the data you want would be simple enough but frankly when crows are flying hard there is no time to record the ease or difficulty of each shot, there is barely time to reload.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 11th of March 2011 02:24:09 PM

8fishermen · Guru

You miss the point of the difficulty portion. That would be an overall perception of the hunt, not the shot itself. Some setups are easier to shoot than others. The setup and average distance is what would be factored into this portion.

Lets say you are run and gunning. Some sets will produce easy shot and some hard. The difficulty of the hunt would be in the middle (lets say a 3 out of 5) with some sets leaning one way or the other. Over the season all shots from long to short would equal out and a top pick would arise.

6's or 7 1/2's would speak for themselves and all this bickering would stop. You have your opinion and till you show me some data from multiple sources, It's just an opinion.

I am not saying what I proposed is The Formula. I am asking for a test method that will give real life numbers on actual birds killed. We can scrap the entire above scenario for someones better one. I am looking for hard data.

The other data would give all involved a better understanding of the season in general.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

All the bickering is going to stop, ya right LOL!!!!!!!!! For some people this 65 yard pattern test is like finding out the sun doesn't revolve around the earth or that the earth is not flat. It's not like the emperor has no clothes but we are finding out he's only got some skivvies biggrin

You have been given good info, go forth and see for yourself what the 6's can do for you. Like the old TV commercial, "Try it, you'll like it", Have fun!

8fishermen · Guru

LOL You are a good sport. My finding so far have been that 7 1/2s kill more birds but as you or I neither have DATA, its just our opinions. As I write this my family is loading up to head on vacation. We will have to pick this up later. Peace and blessings to all.

Y'all figure all this out while I am gone. biggrin

Bob · Guru

Here is some data for you guys:

2008 crow season:

5,279 crows shot with 7,123 hulls, all trap loads (3 dram) in 7 1/2's and 8's.

2009 crow season:

4,164 crows shot with 5,622 hulls, all 3 dram trap loads in 7 1/2's & 8's.

2010 crow season:

4,762 crows shot with 6,492 hulls, all 3 dram trap loads in 7 1/2's & 8's.

Total in 3 seasons was 14,205 crows with 19,237 hulls = 73.8 % average over a 3 season period.

Bob A.

wingmaster · Senior Member

looks like the same thing over and over again! As much as Bob has shot crows with 7 1/2 and 8 's still some one will bring up another shot size. Sorry i think i stick with 7 1/2 or 8's my self. Worse than kids fighing over a pice of candy about shot size LMAO

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Ya someone will still bring up numbers and provide pattern tests to boot. The questions asked; do 6's run out of density at long range, what patterns better at extreme range 7.5's or 6? Seems a few on here were curious and learned something, I know I did.

But in your case I'd say stick with 7.5's and 8's Wingmaster and be sure to buy the video to see how it's done biggrin

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 12th of March 2011 01:17:42 AM

Bob · Guru

Hi Greg,

I saw you're post about saving data on each hunt such as wind, temps, crows shot, shells used etc. I've been saving that data for 37 seasons and 1,412 crow hunts. You can see patterns setup over time so you know which spots produce the best results. This can be time of day or is it good for mornings or afternoons or both. It can also be for what month is the best for that spot as well.

Here is how this past season breaks down.

Hunt # 1. 105 crows shot from 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Wind - west 15 mph 70 degrees out & clear. I used 171 12 gauge hulls = 61% avge # 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 2. 150 crows shot from 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Wind W-SW 25 to 30 mph 72 degrees out & clear outside. I used 212 12 gauge trap loads in 7 1/2 shot = 70% average.

Hunt # 3. I shot 133 crows in the morning from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. then 247 that afternoon from 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Wind W NW 10 to 20 mph 66 degrees out & clear. I used 519 trap loads in 7 1/2's = 73% average.

Hunt # 4. I shot 218 crows from 3:45 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. Wind - West 20 mph 68 degrees out & clear. I used 329 hulls = 66 % average. 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 5. I shot 79 crows from 7:45 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. Wrong spot! Wind - east 10 to 20 mph. 55 degrees out & clear. I used 123 trap loads on high birds ( 40 to 50 yards) = 64% average. 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 6. I shot 375 crows in one spot from 8:30 a.m. to 5:05 p.m. Wind - NW 10 to 20 mph. 51 degrees out & cloudy. I used 503 hulls = 74% average. All trap loads in # 8's.

Hunt # 7. I shot 711 crows today. 568 from 7:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. then 143 from 4:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. I used 895 hulls = 79% average, # 7 1/2's and 8's.

Hunt # 8. I shot 834 crows (biggist shoot of my life) with 1,150 trap loads in 7 1/2's & 8's = 73% average. I had a little over 500 down by 11:00 a.m. Shot from 7:45 a.m. to 5:05 p.m. Wind SW - 10 mph.

Hunt # 9. I shot 273 crows today. 152 in the morning with 8 boxes of trap loads in 8's = 76% average. 7:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. Then 121 that afternoon from 4:30 p.m. to 5:40 p.m. They moved at the last dog! Wind SW 10 to 15 mph. I used 6 boxes of trap loads in 8's = 80% average.

Hunt # 10. Dick & I shot 119 crows from 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. Wind - east 5 mph 18 degrees out & cloudy. I shot 50 crows with 71 trap loads = 70% average. # 8's.

Hunt # 11. Dick & I shot 51 crows from 7:20 a.m. to 8:45 a.m. 12 degrees out & clear. I shot 25 crows with 36 trap loads = 69% average, # 8's.

Hunt # 12. Dick & I shot 287 crows from 1:30 p.m to 5:00 p.m. I broke my rib on the damn ice and had to quit the next day! 9 degrees out & cloudy. Wind NW - 20 mph. I used 149 trap loads for 86 crows = 57% average, I was to stiff, couldn't shoot! # 7 1/2's. Dick shot 201 crows.

Well this is some data from last season.

Bob A.

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

Bob wrote:

Hi Greg,

I saw you're post about saving data on each hunt such as wind, temps, crows shot, shells used etc. I've been saving that data for 37 seasons and 1,412 crow hunts. You can see patterns setup over time so you know which spots produce the best results. This can be time of day or is it good for mornings or afternoons or both. It can also be for what month is the best for that spot as well.

Here is how this past season breaks down.

Hunt # 1. 105 crows shot from 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Wind - west 15 mph 70 degrees out & clear. I used 171 12 gauge hulls = 61% avge # 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 2. 150 crows shot from 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Wind W-SW 25 to 30 mph 72 degrees out & clear outside. I used 212 12 gauge trap loads in 7 1/2 shot = 70% average.

Hunt # 3. I shot 133 crows in the morning from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. then 247 that afternoon from 3:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Wind W NW 10 to 20 mph 66 degrees out & clear. I used 519 trap loads in 7 1/2's = 73% average.

Hunt # 4. I shot 218 crows from 3:45 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. Wind - West 20 mph 68 degrees out & clear. I used 329 hulls = 66 % average. 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 5. I shot 79 crows from 7:45 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. Wrong spot! Wind - east 10 to 20 mph. 55 degrees out & clear. I used 123 trap loads on high birds ( 40 to 50 yards) = 64% average. 7 1/2 shot.

Hunt # 6. I shot 375 crows in one spot from 8:30 a.m. to 5:05 p.m. Wind - NW 10 to 20 mph. 51 degrees out & cloudy. I used 503 hulls = 74% average. All trap loads in # 8's.

Hunt # 7. I shot 711 crows today. 568 from 7:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. then 143 from 4:00 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. I used 895 hulls = 79% average, # 7 1/2's and 8's.

Hunt # 8. I shot 834 crows (biggist shoot of my life) with 1,150 trap loads in 7 1/2's & 8's = 73% average. I had a little over 500 down by 11:00 a.m. Shot from 7:45 a.m. to 5:05 p.m. Wind SW - 10 mph.

Hunt # 9. I shot 273 crows today. 152 in the morning with 8 boxes of trap loads in 8's = 76% average. 7:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. Then 121 that afternoon from 4:30 p.m. to 5:40 p.m. They moved at the last dog! Wind SW 10 to 15 mph. I used 6 boxes of trap loads in 8's = 80% average.

Hunt # 10. Dick & I shot 119 crows from 1:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. Wind - east 5 mph 18 degrees out & cloudy. I shot 50 crows with 71 trap loads = 70% average. # 8's.

Hunt # 11. Dick & I shot 51 crows from 7:20 a.m. to 8:45 a.m. 12 degrees out & clear. I shot 25 crows with 36 trap loads = 69% average, # 8's.

Hunt # 12. Dick & I shot 287 crows from 1:30 p.m to 5:00 p.m. I broke my rib on the damn ice and had to quit the next day! 9 degrees out & cloudy. Wind NW - 20 mph. I used 149 trap loads for 86 crows = 57% average, I was to stiff, couldn't shoot! # 7 1/2's. Dick shot 201 crows.

Well this is some data from last season.

Bob A.

just think if you shot some 6's in that one sided DATA your GREAT AVERAGE should have been higher because my FACTS show that,

8fishermen · Guru

10gacrowshooter wrote:

Bob wrote:

Hi Greg,

I saw you're post about saving data on each hunt such as wind, temps, crows shot, shells used etc. I've been saving that data for 37 seasons and 1,412 crow hunts. You can see patterns setup over time so you know which spots produce the best results. This can be time of day or is it good for mornings or afternoons or both. It can also be for what month is the best for that spot as well.

Here is how this past season breaks down.

just think if you shot some 6's in that one sided DATA your GREAT AVERAGE should have been higher because my FACTS show that,

Hey 10,

I am not trying to be contrary here but why did you call Bob's data one sided? Also what "FACTS" are you referring to? Do you also have records from past hunts showing better results with larger shot? I do not have detailed records like Bob so all I have to go on is what I can remember. Memories are easily lead astray but written down memories quickly clear things up.

I really am looking for the best solution with no affections towards one shot or the other. I hunted crows for the first time this year and by listening to my friend and learning from all of you I was able to see over 1000 birds hit the ground. I did this buy not having "sacred cows" and being willing to try anything I could find to kill more crows.

I shot everything from 5's to 9's and felt I killed more consistently with 7 1/2's. I started out shooting high brass 6's as I didn't think anything smaller was sufficient. I quickly learned differently.

So, all pet loads aside, mine included, is anyone willing to pattern loads and keep records with different shot sizes? I keep asking this question but have not had any takers so far. Are others just not interested or is affection for a particular load or nostalgia of the style of shooting more important to everyone else? I am going to pattern loads and keep records and invite all to join me.

shaddart · Guru

I think when you shake it all out the reason the 6s put as many pellets on target as the higher count 7 1/2s, is simply that the heavier shot hold together longer in flight. I haven't patterned a shotgun on paper in many years, but I did pattern my 1923 lefever nitro 20 ga sxs in snow banks this year (lots of targets) at 50 paced off yards with 6s & 8s, both identical handloads with the exception of shot size & IMHO the 6s patterned better. I realize thats not very scientific, but I was just playing around out of curiosity. everyone need to figure out what works best for them, for me I like the 6s & I won't even get into how well I think 5s work.

Mike27 · Senior Member

Both patterned fine on the test. Shooting paper with an extra full choke off a bench rest is not hunting crows. A 65 yard shot is a poke for anybody and not the norm. Crows drop from the air everyday with a variety of loads and speeds. This discussion will never go away and that's fine by me. The right choke and shot size being answered should probably get differed to shooters ability.

Shoot the most open choke and smallest shot that you can still effectively reach your taget.

GO 7 1/2's

Mike

Bob · Guru

10 gauge CS,

I'm not telling you to go to another shot size, all I'm doing is stating how the 7 1/2's & 8's work for me during any given crow season. When I was starting out and a great many crows ago I used to use 6's out of an 1100 Remington semi auto. I shot mainly the 1 1/8th ounce load but also the 1 1/4 ounce load as well. I used anything from 3 dram to 3 3/4 dram loads, I liked the pigeon load the best, 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 - 6's. But as time went on and the more experience I gained in both shooting and learning how to setup the best way possible I started to try differen't shot sizes. I never used a 10 gauge and I'm sure they do pattern better than a 12 bore because of the bore size. But the average guy is not going to use a 10 gauge on crows, 90% or better opt for the 12 bore.

If the 10 gauge patterns so well and it likes 6's so much why not shoot 2's or # 4 buck at them, perhaps you could pull of some 100 yard shots! My point is where do you draw the line? In my opinion shooting crows beyond 40 yards is not crow hunting. Crow hunting is getting them in close so you can score on multiple kills. I realize that both you and NH are talking about long range shotgunning.

I learned a long time ago that you either want to play at it or get serious about it. By serious I mean learn to hunt them better so as to lure them "inside of 40 yards" While it is fun to shoot high birds you are never going to get any big shoots like that if that is the only shooting you do. Just my opinion.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

It seems a few of you do not get the reason for this thread and the pattern pictures. It evolved from a couple of previous discussions on what shot size is better at long to extreme ranges. A point was put forward that the larger shot due to the fewer number of pellets per ounce would certainly have more measurable energy but would run out of effective pattern density as range extended out past 50 yards. 7.5's were THOUGHT to be more effective at long range because there would be many more of them. Facts are for most guns and loads there will not be that many more and they are much lower in kinectic energy. This was not about how many crows were shot on any day with a specific gauge, load, shot size, day of the week etc. It was about answering Skip's questions.

#4 buck and 100 yard shots, really Bob, c'mon we have not been flip about this, just straight forward testing based on curiosity and questions. Where I draw the line is letting a bird work in to get it in position to be in the sweet spot, speed, angle and distance all nice and close. BUT if a bird suddenly breaks off, pulls up, or there is one hightailing it out after a hunting partner shoots and all I got to work with is a 50 to 60 yard bird then I am going to shoot at it, especially with a full choke, 10 ga loaded with 6.

Bob you said tall timber scared you a while back. NH and Maine ain't Kansas. We got trees, lots and lots of them. For the most part we can't even see a quarter mile in any direction. There are the two most forested states in the lower 48. Shooting here is different.

We have no expectation of anyone using a 10ga much less an antique 2 7/8" They are fun and very effective, if anyone is curious or motivated to try we can be encouraging. They are a blast for many reasons, both age of the guns, their history, provenance and performance.

This is seacoast NH, we never had, don't have and never will have enough crows around the area to have big hunts like you. This is where we live and work, it's what we have, we make the best of it. As far as I know nobody within 50 miles of us puts in more time, more effort, more gear, experiments and tests, or has more success.

Bob · Guru

Hi NH,

I can appreciate you're love of fine old doubles, nice wood & engraving on these firearms. I think it's nice that there are men like you who keep them alive by still using them.

I've hunted crows in Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, Maryland, Virginia and Florida in past years when I lived in Long Island, New York and later when I attended college in Fitchburg, MA. back in the late 1960's. Yup, that was part of my #6 shot days in that country. That was about the time I started using 7 1/2's in a trap load. I even went to a 20 gauge model 12 Winchester and all I shot was 8's thru it on crows for many years. You'll like this...... I even used a model 21 20 gauge with a straight english pistol grip bored WS-1 and modified. I shot 8's and sometimes 9's thru it on crows.

I took that model 21 on a date one time! There was this good lookin gal by the name of Roe Farrow whom I went away with for the weekend. She worked for Cosmo Magazine in NYC back in those days. We were both single and she was a liberal, but I let that slide because she was so damn nice to look at! Anyway to continue here, it was during July in UpState, NY and the young crows were off the nest. I had a very nice leather case inwhich that model 21 broke down. It looked like I was carrying a musical instrument. She asked me what was in it since I didn't want to leave it in the car. The next morning I said "you go ahead and sack in, I'll be back by 11:00 a.m." she asked where I was going so I opened up the gun case and put the model 21 together. She said "whats that for" I said for you if you don't put out! No, I didn't say that, I might have given her heart failure even if she was in her prime! So the liberal got introduced to a guy who liked to hunt. The crow hunting was considered good if you shot a dozen to eighteen birds in that part of the world back then. So, I know where you are coming from in regard to the numbers of crows that can be had depending on what area you are hunting in.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Mike27 wrote:

Both patterned fine on the test. Shooting paper with an extra full choke off a bench rest is not hunting crows. A 65 yard shot is a poke for anybody and not the norm. Crows drop from the air everyday with a variety of loads and speeds. This discussion will never go away and that's fine by me. The right choke and shot size being answered should probably get differed to shooters ability.

Shoot the most open choke and smallest shot that you can still effectively reach your taget.

GO 7 1/2's

Mike

They both patterned fine? Really. Well in the simple terms of pellet count yes pretty equal, 87 vs. 85 holes in the 30" circle. In terms of pattern percentage #6 was 34% vs. 21% for the 7 1/2's. No big deal right?

Remember this test was about what is the best load for the extreme range of a shotgun, remember Skip's question?

There is a HUGE difference in the performance difference of these loads and their ability to kill a bird, and that is kinectic energy. I only have data for energy per pellet at 60yds and using that info there #6 pattern contains 190% more ft/lbs energy within the 30" circle, almost double.

It is likely looking at the two patterns that a bird would be hit by an equal number of pellets, only the #6 pattern represents twice the striking power. Ya they patterned fine visually, but one is much more effective than the other.

You are right, Go 7 1/2's, I'll stick with the 6's, because ultimately....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0&feature=related

biggrin

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 01:30:55 AM

watch em fall · Senior Member

I still think (IMO) most gunners run out of skill before they run out off energy to kill a bird with all shot sizes. If someone knows their gun, ability and load capability the range they can consistantly kill birds will increase. People find what works for them and use it well. It is the same with a rifle, some people love .17 caliber, but it is too small in my opinion. Even though others use it very effectively I won't go smaller than .22 , but that doesn't make me right or them wrong. It only demonstrates a difference in what someone likes. Another example .243 for deer, I use one but others say it is too small and shoot a .338 win mag. for deer(can u say overkill). If I have learned one thing in my 39 years it is that you can't always get someone to accept your point of view. It isn't about right or wrong, better or worse, it is about using what you have confidence in. Besides I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken(LOL).

Bob · Guru

NH,

You said the 10's pattern better than the 12's; you have no argument out of me so far. I know you love shooting you're 10 gauge but most guys just don't think it's necessary. So as I see it the 6's pattern better out of you're 10 gauge than say almost all 12 gauges? If this is so why would anyone want to shoot 6's when 7 1/2's pattern better in almost all 12 gauge shotguns made in the USA?

I used to use 6's myself but when I tried 7 1/2's my percentage went up on the amount of crows I brought down. As I became a better wingshot over the years I didn't seem to experience the problems you talk about in regard to killing crows 50 yards and beyond with a 3 dram trap load in 7 1/2's or 8's. Infact I killed many more at long range with a trap load than using any combination of 6's out of a 12 gauge. The best # 6 load I liked was the 3 1/4 - 1 1/4 - 6 load. It was almost on par with the 3 dram trap load of 1 1/8th ounces of 7 1/2's.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob I don't think you were paying close attention here. First, we don't need to shoot the 10's. We enjoy shooting the 10's, from reloading a shell that can't be bought and shooting guns that are very old, hard to find, built to standards not seen today and when you add increased performance all the better.

Second your statement that 7.5's pattern better in almost all 12 gauge guns is ancedotal, often accepted as fact but often a myth. The patterns above are from a 12ga gun. A gun chosen at random for this test. Across the board we are finding 6's pattern equally well and sometimes better.

Finally this thread is/was not about what you have killed or what we have killed. This was in answer to Skip's question about what is most important at very long range. The patterns show what the guns can do, it's an objective test rather than the usual subjective responses of 7.5's have more pellets, or I shoot crows at long range with such and such, or I like I/C choke or my modified works good, or my buddy shot a crow at 65 yard with 8's and they work fine etc, etc.

Again we were told 6's would run out of pattern density at extended range and therefore 7.5's with more pellets in the load would be the best choice. The reason for the post, to objectively demonstrate 6's don't run out of pattern density at extended range because there is no question they are carrying more energy.

We use the 6's hunting because on the hundreds of crows we shoot year in and year out (not as many as you but plenty enough to see trends) we observed cleaner folds, fewer squawking struggling birds falling to the ground, and more birds hitting the ground with barely a wiggle on average with #6 shot vs. 7 1/2 regardless of range. Yes this too is ancedotal but we went to the patterning board to find out why. Seems to me there are a lot of opinions here and a great deal of ancedotal or subjective evaluation and not based on pattern tests or perhaps I have missed those posts.

Fact is most people shoot 7.5's because they are widely available and cheap. Throw in a recommendation from someone like yourself that they are not just good enough but the best, acan discourage people from experimenting and field testing on their own. Same way many folks simply accept the marking on a choke tube and assume that is what it is delivering without doing a test.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 10:47:55 AM

jd1983 · Senior Member

Wow this is still being kicked around, there are to many variables to get a accurate awnser.

NHCrow · Veteran Member

jd1983 wrote:

Wow this is still being kicked around, there are to many variables to get a accurate awnser.

yes it is...

Bob · Guru

NH,

If 6's are so superior to 7 1/2's at long range (beyond 50 yards) how come I have a higher kill percentage with the 7 1/2's? One thing that needs to be mentioned when one looks at a pattern on paper "all the shot does not get there at the same instant" what we are looking at is when all the shot arrives on paper. You're # 6 shot patterns might look a tad thin when the first pellets hit the paper on the patterning board.

I am not trying to get you to switch just because I like the smaller shot sizes. If a guy has more confidence in 6's go ahead and shoot them. Don't forget, I used 6's myself before going to the smaller shot sizes.

The bottom line is how well it works on live birds not paper targets!

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob, pattern paper and 30" circles, and defined parameters of pattern percentage is the industry standard of measuring shotgun performance. It is an objective and not a subjective test and standard.

How come you kill more with 7 1/2's, because it's about all you have used for how many years? I can't explain your observation on performance because I am not there. I don't know if your range estimations are accurate or the same as mine. I have not seen how your gun patterns each load. I believe a short shot string is better but there are tests done by Brister on moving targets, essentially pattern boards pulled behind a vehicle at speed that would indicate that the shot string length has no bearing because it is moving so fast relative to the speed of a crossing target. Maybe you can provide some pictures of how your gun is patterning your loads at various ranges. What I do know is based on observation is a crow hit by target size shot more come down like it had been stung by a swarm of bees, when hit with 6's more act like it flew into a brick wall.

The #6 pattern and # 7 1/2 pattern on display here are statistically the same, 85 vs. 87 pellets, if shot string is an issue both would be affect equally, ie if one is thin so is the other.

You also hunt in the plains states, not many tall trees. Generally we place our blinds in the low open spots overlooking open land. However because it's NH we are almost alway dealing with a tree line that often has 60 foot tall or more trees. A crows flight is affected by such terrain. We've had them land in the decoys, we've shot them at point blank range, but more birds than not stay up and out a little bit to be able to navigate the terrain. I am sure you'll agree hunting in and around a forested area provides different shooting than hunting the agricultual areaa of the plains states such as Kansas.

Once again, we were told a load of #6 would lack sufficient pattern density at long/extended range and that 7 1/2's would have for more pellets in the pattern at that range. The pattern board is not subjective, it shows there is enough pattern density and the density is essentially equal to 7 1/2's due to the lack of inertia in the lighter pellet.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 05:06:33 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:

Bob, pattern paper and 30" circles, and defined parameters of pattern percentage is the industry standard of measuring shotgun performance. It is an objective and not a subjective test and standard.

How come you kill more with 7 1/2's, because it's about all you have used for how many years? I can't explain your observation on performance because I am not there. I don't know if your range estimations are accurate or the same as mine. I have not seen how your gun patterns each load. I believe a short shot string is better but there are tests done by Brister on moving targets, essentially pattern boards pulled behind a vehicle at speed that would indicate that the shot string length has no bearing because it is moving so fast relative to the speed of a crossing target. Maybe you can provide some pictures of how your gun is patterning your loads at various ranges. What I do know is based on observation is a crow hit by target size shot more come down like it had been stung by a swarm of bees, when hit with 6's more act like it flew into a brick wall.

The #6 pattern and # 7 1/2 pattern on display here are statistically the same, 85 vs. 87 pellets, if shot string is an issue both would be affect equally, ie if one is thin so is the other.

You also hunt in the plains states, not many tall trees. Generally we place our blinds in the low open spots overlooking open land. However because it's NH we are almost alway dealing with a tree line that often has 60 foot tall or more trees. A crows flight is affected by such terrain. We've had them land in the decoys, we've shot them at point blank range, but more birds than not stay up and out a little bit to be able to navigate the terrain. I am sure you'll agree hunting in and around a forested area provides different shooting than hunting the agricultual areaa of the plains states such as Kansas.

Once again, we were told a load of #6 would lack sufficient pattern density at long/extended range and that 7 1/2's would have for more pellets in the pattern at that range. The pattern board is not subjective, it shows there is enough pattern density and the density is essentially equal to 7 1/2's due to the lack of inertia in the lighter pellet.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 02:00:45 PM

the last part of the post IS WHAT STARTED ALL THIS and WE showed it was not true about 6 shot. we ( I)did did not intend for people to change shot size ,shoot what you want, we just showed the FACTS based on test and know one else showed and of their test other than "thats what i shoot so it is the best" i have shot both and NH hit it on the head "when crows are hit with 7 1/2 's looks like they were stung by bee's" i even told him at yesterdays shoot( we had some 7 1/2 's for some test) when he hit birds with 7 1/2 shot very light hit but did drop the bird. the 6's and 5's we were shooting would drop them like rocks out to 50 +. 10 ga.

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 02:44:37 PM

-- Edited by 10gacrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 02:45:19 PM

Bob · Guru

NH,

Out here in the plains the crows fly high (not all of them) once the season gets underway, high trees, low trees, makes no difference. I've seen them fly high in a headwind once they become educated. I know the terrain back there, I lived in the northeast for 26 years of my life.

You asked me how many years have I been using the smaller shot sizes, I started in around 1968. From 1965 to 1968 I used # 6's on crows.

When you stated in you're last post that it was a myth that 7 1/2's pattern better than 6's in just about all 12 gauge shotguns made in the USA all I can say to that statement is that there are tens of thousands of trap shooters nation wide who would most strenuously disagree with you.

You said you shoot both the 12 and 10 at crows and if I'm not mistaken you now say you use the 12 more, is this correct? If so, roughly how many do you kill each season with either one, give or take a hundred crows? The reason I ask is because you stated that it makes no difference on the amount either one of us shoots each season, I beg to differ, it makes all the difference.

Bob A.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Where to start? First I am a trapshooter, good enough to have been on my state team for several years. I doubt there is a single serious trapshooter who would disagree with me about #6 shot or tell me anything about #6 shot, they can't use it, the rules of registered trap shooting prohibit the use of anything larger than 7 1/2 shot. FWIW if we were to poll shooters with a 27 yard handicap to a man they are shooting the heaviest load 1 1/8 ounce, largest shot, 7 1/2 the rules allow. Why because they know 7 1/2's pattern tighter than 8's and pack more energy on a distant target. When Daro Handy was once asked why he shot 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce and 7.5's he answered because they won't let me shoot anything heavier.

When I said it makes no difference how many crows we shoot it is in reference the pattern test results. They don't change, they are an objective fact, they prove the point that #6 can have sufficient density at long/extended range to kill crows. They also show 7 1/2's can not be assumed to pattern better as sometimes they do not.

Give us some objective information. Post up some of you own pattern tests, show us how cheapo loads are just as good as premium ammo. Show us long range superior patterns of 7.5's. Show us penetration test in ballistic gelatin showing a 7.5 can still get into vitals at 60 yards. Until you do that it's just "I shot x thousand number of crows with y amount of shells and most were high and the cheapo loads seemed to work fine and I like the way my gun is choked, yada yada yada.

Again the test here were to answer Skip's question about what is best at long/extended range. 7 1/2's were shown to not provide any more density based on a larger overall pellet count. This negated the "assumed" advantage of small shot at long range.

Now if would like to debate the science of statistical analysis and when sample size reaches a point it does not matter, I actually have some training in that field. Sample sizes indeed reaches a point, and fairly quickly, where average performance can be determined and further sampling beyond that point does not materially change the results.

Frankly I don't see where you offered anything objective here, simply ancedotal evidence based on shooting several thousand crows a year. You know what that's great, your fortunate that you have the combination of population, time, and resources to kill that many. However it does nothing to objectively determine whether a #6 shot load is inferior or superior to a a shot charge of 7 1/2.

Now I can't resist this one. If you haven't shot #6's since the 1960's you ought to give it another try, shells have improved since then, they invented the plastic wad biggrin

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 13th of March 2011 10:21:23 PM

10gacrowshooter · Senior Member

do you know that i once saw a guy shoot a 160 lb. buck with and 1 1/4 oz of 4's (not 4 buck)at 20 yds stoned him dead with in 2 feet he droped , so the way bob stated 4's are the best deer load. come on go with FACTS not what you think!!! o by the way it was ok by law to shoot deer with bird shot than in N.H.. 7 1/5 work fine but does not mean they are the best just most cost savings. i reload ,so 6 or 71/5 cost the same for me so i will keep shoot the best of both worlds!!!!

watch em fall · Senior Member

I think this topic should be

8fishermen · Guru

NH or 10,

Do either of you know at what yardage the 7 1/2's pattern breaks down and the 6's overtake them in pattern percentage? No ulterior motive. When I get back in town I too will be shooting patterns. I would like to compare my findings with others to see if patters are similar or if they beak down at different rates in different guns.

watch em fall · Senior Member

I now understand the saying "It is like beating a dead horse"

Bob · Guru

Hello NH,

You asked me to post up my own information on test results showing the El Cheapo loads are just as good as premium loads, you're very own words! Perhaps you don't pay attention either, I never said the El Cheapo loads are better than the premium ammo. What I said was that the premium ammo patterned better than the El Cheapo loads but I could still kill crows just as high and just as far with the El Cheapo loads.

Penetration tests? That sounds like it has a sexual connotation to it lol.

I've plucked quite a few crows that have been killed beyond 50 yards to see how the 7 1/2's did on penetration. Most of the time the 7 1/2's either just break the skin or go in 1/8 of an inch inside the skin. This is exactly why for me to use 6's would be a moot point, I'm shooting crows not ducks and geese here. The crows are just as dead from the shock of being hit from the 7 1/2's as anything else so why change something that has worked very well for over 40 years? You don't need "deep" penetration to kill crow, is that objective enough for you.

You never answered my question as to how many crows you kill each season with each shotgun, 10 & 12 gauge?

How is this for being objective, there is a pretty good chance I shoot more crows beyond 50 yards each season than all you're crows put together for the entire season. Does this make me a better man than you or that I'm even a better hunter than you, no it does not, but it does mean that I have a whole lot more experience than you and that is a fact, how am I doing, am I objective enough for you.

It's pointless to banty words with you because you are not going to change my mind, I say let the chips fall where they may and let each decide on his own what is best for them.

Bob A.

watch em fall · Senior Member

This is gonna get good, I can just tell

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Bob, the point of this thread was never an attempt to change your mind or anyone else's.

The test was done in direct response to two questions from Skip Woody on what is most important for long range shots. In another thread he and at least one other member offered their opinion that #6 would have insufficient pattern density over smaller shot to be effective. As you and others can see it can have sufficient density. Last fall it was hypothesized that #6 in 7/8 ounce loadings in a 20ga would have insufficient density in normal shotgun range. We did a test and showed it too can have sufficient density from a 20ga in 7/8 ounce loading at 40 yards.

Yes you have stated cheapo loads didn't pattern as well as premium ammo but could kill them as high and far. I am curious I don't buy or use cheapo's I would like to know how effective are they in terms of pattern. If they work as well perhaps the patterns are not inferior or only slightly inferior. Pattern them, find out, share with us. The pattern test is objective, yoru observation they work as good is subjective and that is my point in using those terms.

I started shooting the 2 7/8" 10ga last fall on crow. Would have used one sooner but I fell prey to the myth that all damascus barrels were pipe bombs and I would be blind and fingerless if were to shoot one. I very quickly saw it could outperform a 12 on the trap field and that experience carried over to the pattern board, crows, and waterfowl.

Based on last year I would say I shoot about 50% of my crows with the 10ga. I use the 12 generally when birds are flying steady because I can load 12ga shells faster on a progressive reloader than the single stage needed for the short ten. My avarage kill spring in fall is between 200 and 600 birds a year and I have been at it for about 35 years. Yes that does not compare with your success but I can only shoot the population I have to work with. I envy your big shoots.

I still believe #6 is more effective throughout the range spectrum, I have offered evidence that counters the biggest reason to not use it, lack of pattern density. I have continued and will continue to tell people to experiment and that includes trying #6 and see for themselves. I am not the only one here who has openly reported better results from the larger shot.

Mainehunt · Guru

I am glad that we can all make our own decisions and shoot whichever gun, gauge, cartridge, or shot size that we want.

Personally, I typically won't shoot past 40 yards at a crow. So I shoot a 12 ga, L/M choke tube with #7.5 or #8 shot.

I hope all of you shoot whatever makes you happy.

Kev