I will always believe it has more to do with the shooter than shot size, gauge , gun, action type ,age of the shooter or their firearm or any other factor. Bottom line , if someone is a good shotgunner, they will hit more targets. It doesn't matter if it's clays or crows or pigeons or any other target. If someone sucks at shooting they could use any combo and not hit a thing. Conversely give a great shot any load and they will have success.
Try it for yourself, take a .410 or 20 gauge and take the worst shot you know and give him a 12 or 10 gauge, and share a blind. At the end of the day compare kills, the better shooter will win every damn time. my point is equipment is only as good as the operator period. That is why when you get to be a consistantly successful shot then tweek your equipment.
Bottom line if someone is struggling with form and or technique using other shot size will not correct it.
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whatever i'm doing i'm thinking about crow hunting
It's true, we live in a society where we want instant gratification, anything to speed up the learning curve. Well if shotgunning were easy everyone would be good! It takes years to get good, same as any other sport with hand to eye coordination. It takes a great deal of detication and sacrifice plus the will to become better, you have to really want it. Some folks have faster learning curves than others but in the end we all get there at differen't levels.
In my opinion we are focusing backwards in regard to how far you can kill crows, the focus in my opinion should be how close can we kill crows! While it's all well and good to be able to kill the high birds with whatever shot size you prefer the facts are that 90% of the gunners can't hit bupkiss past 40 to 45 yards on a moving target such as a crow. They don't get enough shooting at that range to build in the muscle memory it takes to do it with any kind of consistancy. This is why I say our focus is backwards in this respect. No special shot size will solve the problem of poor wing shooting, but with the right shot size and choke it can help the new wing shooter depending on the advise he follows.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
Right skill cannot be substituted in any challenge. I used to buy into the theory that you could cheat the odds, but you can only do what your best is. The best thing for me is using 8's or 7.5's and trying to keep the highest % of my shots I can under 40 yards. Having said that, sometimes that doesn't pan out. Then polishhammer and I break out a few boxes of his reloads and it is game on for the "high ones". I used to golf a lot, played several rounds with a borrowed set of Taylor Made clubs. Guess what, I still shot the same low scores as I did with my cheap set I bought from K-mart. I know it isn't the same, but is it that different? There is no, I repeat no substitute for skill and ability! Use what works, but practice will be more useful than any other factor. I lost site of that for a few years, and I'm getting closer to my old form but I got a long long way to go!!!
-- Edited by watch em fall on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 02:11:36 AM
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whatever i'm doing i'm thinking about crow hunting
Tough for most, me included, to consistantly kill with a shotgun at long range. As Bob A. stated, plenty of live bird shooting is nessisary to become proficient at this and many outside variables impact as well. It is my experience though, that a lot of those that claim to make lots of long range kills on a constant basis are greatly over estimating ranges. IMO, for most to kill consistantly and get good shot to kill ratios, birds should be tolled in as close to the shooter as possible.
Ted
-- Edited by M12Shooter on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 08:35:45 PM
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Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
Here is something to think about, the Remington Rep told me years ago that the average hunter shoots two to three boxes of shotgun shells a season! I'm talking about upland bird hunters who get together during Thanksgiving and Christmas and that is the only time they hunt! They go out opening weekend and thats it for many of them.
I've been in the crow blind over the years with a few fellas that have not had the field experience I have had over the years. An overhead shot on a crow that was 35 yards they thought was 50 yards and beyond! 10 gauge and I spoke of this last nite about when I explain something some folks think I am talking down to them, perhaps this is an example, but for the life of me I sure don't see it!
Perhaps we could get a survey on how many shells each crow hunter goes through each season to get an average here? Might add to it how many hunts they go on and how many crows they shoot per season.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
Perhaps we could get a survey on how many shells each crow hunter goes through each season to get an average here? Might add to it how many hunts they go on and how many crows they shoot per season.
Bob A.
Good idea, we would learn there are more crows in some places and less in others
Educated guess, counting spring and fall crow, waterfowl, maybe a few pheasant probably 1200-1600 shells annually. Trap, Skeet and Sporting, 2000-4000 more.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 17th of March 2011 02:27:04 PM
Here is something to think about, the Remington Rep told me years ago that the average hunter shoots two to three boxes of shotgun shells a season! I'm talking about upland bird hunters who get together during Thanksgiving and Christmas and that is the only time they hunt! They go out opening weekend and thats it for many of them.
I've been in the crow blind over the years with a few fellas that have not had the field experience I have had over the years. An overhead shot on a crow that was 35 yards they thought was 50 yards and beyond! 10 gauge and I spoke of this last nite about when I explain something some folks think I am talking down to them, perhaps this is an example, but for the life of me I sure don't see it!
Perhaps we could get a survey on how many shells each crow hunter goes through each season to get an average here? Might add to it how many hunts they go on and how many crows they shoot per season.
Bob A.
Have to pretty well agree with what you posted Bob. Through the years I have hunted with plenty of guys as well. Most were "duffers" for the lack of other words. They only took their shotguns out during the fall. Scouting was "boring" and many simply just wanted to shoot at birds as opposed to hunting them. When a longish kill was made they would rant and rave about this 70 yard stone dead kill when in truth the shot was likely no more then 45 yards!
I have hunted a lot of ducks as I was lucky enough to have had a father and several relitives that were hard core. My Dad was a very good shot in his day. A product of the Great Depression of the 1930's, he would never "waste" a shell or sky bust at "Hail Mary" targets. He was though, IMO a good long range shot. Talking 50 yards here as this is what I would concider taking ducks at the edge of practical killing range with 1950's-60's technology. He did a lot of hunting when seasons were long, birds plentiful and limits liberal.
Back to crows now! I hunt them because I'm able to legally hunt from early spring throughout the summer into fall. Crows are plentiful, smart and thus make a great game bird. I would feel guilty shooting 20 mallards in a morning even if the law allowed this, but shooting 20 crows is just a warm-up for me. Getting them in as close as possible is vital as my goal is to shoot as many as I can! I save my "long range" shooting for varmint rifles.
Bob's suggestion re: number of rounds fired per season is a good one. I myself fire between 500-1000 rounds at crows each year and time is my limiting factor, about the same on trap and clays. Last fall I fired three boxes of ammo at ducks and upland combined. This was enough to but all the meat in the freezer my family could practically use for the season.
Ted
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Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
To almost all of us this is no surprise that even the casual crow hunter still shoots much more than the average upland and maybe even waterfowl hunters do at live birds.
It would be very interesting to see nation wide the amount of ammo that is used "just for crows" and equally interesting to see the percentage of handloaders like NH & 10 gauge as opposed to fellas who buy it brand new off the shelf?
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I agree completely (but) once I was shooting back yard clays with my cousin. I shot almost a full box of shells and didnt hit but 2 targets. I was shooting at a crossing target that I never have a problem with. I was also getting VERY frustrated. I was using a box of cheap 7/8 oz. promo loads. After I opened another box of the cheap federal loads you get in the 100 pack at wal mart I broke the next 20 in a row. I agree about the good shooter bad shooter thing with the small bore big bore thing BUT you can most deffinantly hamper your ability with crappy ammo. I mean there are cheap loads and inexpensive loads and the two aren't the same.
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A SUPER 90 and a crow in range, life is good. A good sandwich and bag of M&Ms doesnt hurt either.
Yup, I have had good results with the Federal ammo in the four packs at Walmart. Once in a great while I get a dud that won't fire but you still are buying them at a very good price compared to premium ammo.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
Hi Bob, I think the average "NIMROD" thinks he shoots more than ANYBODY! "BUT" take a GUY like you or ME and I think I don't SHOOT ENOUGH! Imean there are times when Weather,etc. stpos a man from getting to the field,my alternative is the gun club,usually its a 200 round day at the least! I duck hunt religously out of my 103 day season + upland birds and crows! For some one like you or me its "THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS A YEAR!" At one time I used to shoot a minimum of 800 rounds a week! Skeet,trap,+sporting clays, noy including hunting!! My PONSNESS WARREN 800-c reloaders are as good as the day I bought them,money well spent!! I would hate to have to buy new shells all the time now! I can deal with steel,but not lead!
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"LOAD and RELOAD" "NEVER FORGET THOSE THAT TOOK A HIT FOR YOU EVEN WHEN THEY DID'T KNOW YOU" U.S. VETERANS!!
Yea, the Ponsness Warren reloading presses were the Rolls Royce of reloading presses. MEC makes a good press and turns out fine reloads, but it's not near as beefy and rugged as the Ponsness Warren. They sure don't make them like that anymore.
So do you hunt puddle ducks or sea ducks? Out of the 103 days how many days out of that do you get to go?
My good friend Dick Kilbane whom I hunt crows with has a house that he only uses one month out of the year up in Saskatchewan. He buys the cheapest Winchester steel loads for ducks & geese because he hunts every day up there. He says they work just fine once you get geared to them.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
One year I hunted all 103 days straight! No sunday hunting up here in the peoples republic of Mass/Taxachussetts! We get a generous amount of sea ducks and our share of puddelers/bay birds-mergansers,golen eye,buffle heads,blacks.mallards,etc.I can leave my house and be on the water in 15 mins. I used to load steel quite abit but now that bag limits have changed its cheaper to just buy 'em in bulk! How wver I'm still using my Ponsness for the gun clu and upland birds!
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"LOAD and RELOAD" "NEVER FORGET THOSE THAT TOOK A HIT FOR YOU EVEN WHEN THEY DID'T KNOW YOU" U.S. VETERANS!!
This is a pretty good topic. It's interesting to see how many rounds other crow hunters go through during their season on crows. Any crow hunter I ever ran into liked to shoot and shoot a lot. There is no other bird in the USA you can do this with except pigeons, (live ones) starlings and grackles, but to a much lesser degree.
I still hunt ducks once in a very great while here in the states and go out a few times for quail. I mainly go for quail because my old model 12 Winchester keeps crying inside the gun safe and wants me to take it out to blow the cob webs out of the barrel. Besides that I enjoy watching a good pair of Britts or English Pointers work in the field.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
Best single day: Oct. 22, 2010, 98, all shot from one blind. Shot 113 shells; 86.7 %
Shotguns used: Hunted one day with Remington 1187 Premier, 26" bbl. All other days hunted with Ithaca XL300 or Ithaca XL900, all 12 ga. modified choke.
Days in the field: Three partial days (about 3-4 hrs. of hunting each) and nine full days. Thats 38.83 kills per day, including the partial days. Pretty good average for North Carolina hunting. Hunted solo each day.
Actually, my hunting season is'nt over, as my season runs from Sept. 01, of one year, until Aug. 31 of following year.
Yes we get 103 days of sea ducking! the puddle ducks correspond with the same amount of days as you,we get an early goose season and an extended season!
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"LOAD and RELOAD" "NEVER FORGET THOSE THAT TOOK A HIT FOR YOU EVEN WHEN THEY DID'T KNOW YOU" U.S. VETERANS!!
Almost 87% on the 98 bird day is putting the whomp on em! If you took them as they came that is an outstanding average! You're seasonal average of 74% is about what my seasonal average has been since around 1991 to the present day.
Thanks for you're report. You are far better than "just a fair hand with a shotgun"
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
In Mass. we are restricted to only hunt crows on Friday,Saturday and Monday! From July 1 to April 10 of the following year,the "Buzzards" get a break during breeding season,The schedule ain't bad if you are a working man with weekends off! Do you hunt 3,6,or seven days ??
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"LOAD and RELOAD" "NEVER FORGET THOSE THAT TOOK A HIT FOR YOU EVEN WHEN THEY DID'T KNOW YOU" U.S. VETERANS!!
I'll be willing to venture to say I shot around two hundred times last season and I would struggle to say I shot an honest 50%. I know my average hurts in timber stands and I don't conserve many shells in my over/under. Most days here a total in the double digits is a good day, and my best day last year was 23-24 (I can't remember excactly). Every day out it seems I miss a super easy bird but manage to pull off a spectacular shot before the day is over.
-- Edited by JBD on Tuesday 10th of May 2011 12:43:43 AM
Bob, my working career was as an Industrial Engineer, in which "numbers" was the body of my work. "Numbers" carry over into my crow hunting sport, and thats why I am able to report my seasonal statistics.
Yessir, I take shots as they come; all the dude has gotta do is fly into range for me to ambush 'em. The 98 score day, with 87% kill ratio, was a exceptionally good day. Wish it was at each end of the Gaussian normal distribution curve, instead of in the center!
Thanks for your kind remarks about my shootin skill, but I am probably about average for anyone who shoots no more than I do.
I can tell that you are very humble, the 87% and the 74% seasonal average are well above average.
Many years ago, back in the late 1970's I had a shoot that stands out in my mind, I was shooting crows coming down the Arkansas River. This was about 15 minutes from my house here in Hutchinson, KS. I was just using a 20 gauge model 12 Winchester with a 7/8th ounce of # 8 shot. It was an afternoon flyway shoot and at the end I shot 99 crows with 106 20 gauge hulls. The shooting was spaced out where I didn't have to hurry, plus the shooting was soft, I don't think I shot a crow beyond 30 yards that afternoon. The wind was 15 to 25 mph but I was in a pocket of the river out of the wind that afternoon. I killed a lot of crows between point blank ( 7 yards ) to 12 to 15 yards, it's just the way they were working that afternoon. A guy shoots better when they are strung out and coming in one or two at a time.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I would have to guess that I shoot over 1000 shells a year. Not a lot compared to some competitive shooters but more than your average upland hunter. This is counting duck/goose, crow, and clay targets. Since I picked up the new Maxus I have run 650 rounds through her. maybe my estimate is low. I will keep a better count this year (2011) and see what volume I actually shoot. I don't keep a ratio of kills/shots fired but I would guess it runs around 25-30% depending on how committed the birds are that day.
I would have to guess that I shoot over 1000 shells a year. Not a lot compared to some competitive shooters but more than your average upland hunter. This is counting duck/goose, crow, and clay targets. Since I picked up the new Maxus I have run 650 rounds through her. maybe my estimate is low. I will keep a better count this year (2011) and see what volume I actually shoot. I don't keep a ratio of kills/shots fired but I would guess it runs around 25-30% depending on how committed the birds are that day.
The new Beretta A400 Explor has a round counter built into the grip, kind of like an odometer for guns.
Ted
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Life's tough... It's even tougher if you're stupid. John Wayne
It's true, we live in a society where we want instant gratification, anything to speed up the learning curve. Well if shotgunning were easy everyone would be good! It takes years to get good, same as any other sport with hand to eye coordination. It takes a great deal of detication and sacrifice plus the will to become better, you have to really want it. Some folks have faster learning curves than others but in the end we all get there at differen't levels. In my opinion we are focusing backwards in regard to how far you can kill crows, the focus in my opinion should be how close can we kill crows! While it's all well and good to be able to kill the high birds with whatever shot size you prefer the facts are that 90% of the gunners can't hit bupkiss past 40 to 45 yards on a moving target such as a crow. They don't get enough shooting at that range to build in the muscle memory it takes to do it with any kind of consistancy. This is why I say our focus is backwards in this respect. No special shot size will solve the problem of poor wing shooting, but with the right shot size and choke it can help the new wing shooter depending on the advise he follows. Bob A.
You can have computer sights of anything you like, but I think you have to go to the enemy on the shortest distance and knock him down from point-blank range. You'll get him from in close. At long distance, it's questionable.
— Colonel Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann, GAF.
I am not a good shot. Few of us are. To make up for this I hold my fire until I have a shot of less than 20 degrees deflection and until I'm within 300 yards. Good discipline on this score can make up for a great deal.
— Lt. Colonel John C. Meyer, USAAF.
Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.
— Major Thomas B. 'Tommy' McGuire, USAAF.
I opened fire when the whole windshield was black with the enemy . . . at minimum range . . . it doesn't matter what your angle is to him or whether you are in a turn or any other maneuver.
There is no, I repeat no substitute for skill and ability! Use what works, but practice will be more useful than any other factor. I lost site of that for a few years, and I'm getting closer to my old form but I got a long long way to go!!!
