Crow Busters Forum

Minnesota John · Senior Member

Do you ever miss birds because you have a long shot string?

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Randy Wakeman, a ballistic expert ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! He is still preaching that Damascus and Twist barrel guns should never be fired with nitro powder shells over on Shotgun World. Never mind testing and lots of use to the contrary and the fact single base nitro powders were common when the guns were built.

Quite humourous that he dismisses the findings of Bob Brister because his tests were conducted outdoors (don't know about anybody else but all my wingshooting is conducted outdoors too). I take anything he has to say with a grain of salt.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 18th of November 2011 08:49:44 PM

Minnesota John · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Randy Wakeman, a ballistic expert ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!! He is still preaching that Damascus and Twist barrel guns should never be fired with nitro powder shells over on Shotgun World. Never mind testing and lots of use to the contrary and the fact single base nitro powders were common when the guns were built.
Quite humourous that he dismisses the findings of Bob Brister because his tests were conducted outdoors (don't know about anybody else but all my wingshooting is conducted outdoors too). I take anything he has to say with a grain of salt.

How about the math where is that wrong?

John

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 18th of November 2011 08:49:44 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

If a shot string is longer there would be some advantage to that in that one could over lead a bird a still hit it. If a shot string is short there would be some advantage to that too with more pellets hitting the target at the same instant apply a more overwhelming shock. That could be what is the most imortant factor but nobody has or can test that beyond observations in the field.

FWIW the shot string starts in the loaded shell. There is ample evidence demonstrating the best performance comes from square payloads with lead shot due to less bore scrub and pellet crush. A bigger bore allows for larger square payload so with shotguns size matters and it always has.

A smaller bore shotgun will never be as good or effective as larger bore, so one can extol the virtues of a larger bore shotgun over a smaller bore based on tested factual performance over the last 100+ years. It may or may not have to with shot string but it has evertything to do with physics.

Skip · Guru

To a crow hunter, the most meaningful words in Wakeman's epistle: " ShotString remains more fable than tangible value..." A partial list of things more important to dwell upon number about 2,389. biggrin

skip

Minnesota John · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:
If a shot string is longer there would be some advantage to that in that one could over lead a bird a still hit it. If a shot string is short there would be some advantage to that too with more pellets hitting the target at the same instant apply a more overwhelming shock. That could be what is the most imortant factor but nobody has or can test that beyond observations in the field.

FWIW the shot string starts in the loaded shell. There is ample evidence demonstrating the best performance comes from square payloads with lead shot due to less bore scrub and pellet crush. A bigger bore allows for larger square payload so with shotguns size matters and it always has.

A smaller bore shotgun will never be as good or effective as larger bore, so one can extol the virtues of a larger bore shotgun over a smaller bore based on tested factual performance over the last 100+ years. It may or may not have to with shot string but it has evertything to do with physics.

So you can not say the math is wrong?

It is simple the shot is going x fast and the bird is going x. Most thing I have read about it show the bird never moves more then 4 inches even if the shot string is 10 feet long.

John

nhcrowshooter · Guru

A longer shot string would only help if a bird is over lead. That is not the cause of most misses, I would say more often they are not lead enough. However the shooting error I am most guilty of and I am sure many others are as well is lifting one's head to get a better look at the target.

I am not sure about the math because what Wakeman presents seems to be skimpy in it's detail.

However I know a bigger bore on a shotgun is advantagous for long range shooting.

8fishermen · Guru

Hey NH,

I am curious, what is your average shot distance? Do you hunt a lot of tall timber or well educated birds? What is your max shot distance on a typical setup? I now this is off topic, not trying to start anything with the questions. I am genuinely curious.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

8 I would say on average we try to take our shots in a 25 to 40 yd range whenever possible. NH is the 2nd most forested state in the Union, lots of pine trees, Oaks and Maples. We look for openings and low spots for blind set ups but the trees are what they are, often the trees around us are 90 foot or better. Our birds are often educated because there is a lack of farming in this part of the state, limiting available locations. This year was made worse when the corn came in 3 to 4 weeks later than usual. At best we have a half dozen locations to hunt, when the corn was left standing we ended up pounding the same area pretty hard. We'll take any shot with the 10ga's out to 65 yards if the shot looks reasonably doable, slow glider for instance, especially if they look like they are not going to get any closer. In spite of tall trees everywhere, a small number of locations to hunt we do pretty good. This year 10gacrowshooter and I have taken over 1300 between us since Aug 6th. A record season for us but I think very respectable for this part of the US.

8fishermen · Guru

I suspected you were hunting educated and/or "tall" birds. That is a great body count for only 6 locations. Very impressive.

Troy Seal · Senior Member

You need to read "Shotguns the Art and Science" by Bob Brister if you dig that kind of stuff. I read it last year and found it interesting. But I dont lose any sleep over my shot string, (I use good shells not promos).

Polish Hammer · Senior Member

Go out to a body of water (preferrably a non-moving body of water like a pond or lake). Aim your shotgun (don't care what bore) to hit the water around 30-40 yards. NOW...as you pull the trigger move your gun left to right or right to left as fast as you can and all you bb's are going to hit in one area. You're not going to see a spray of bb's going across the water surface.

Shot string talk is a joke.

Hammer

-- Edited by Polish Hammer on Friday 2nd of December 2011 02:21:08 PM

Mainehunt · Guru

Polish Hammer wrote:
Go out to a body of water (preferrably a non-moving body of water like a pond or lake). Aim your shotgun (don't care what bore) to hit the water around 30-40 yards. NOW...as you pull the trigger move your gun left to right or right to left as fast as you can and all you bb's are going to hit in one area. You're not going to see a spray of bb's going across the water surface.
Shot string talk is a joke.
Hammer

-- Edited by Polish Hammer on Friday 2nd of December 2011 02:21:08 PM

I was seaduck hunting a month ago off of a small island off the coast of Maine. The Eiders fly pretty close to the water, if you miss, you know immediately where you hit and can adjust accordingly. These seaducks are fast, so you must swing very fast and give plenty of lead. It was interesting to see the pattern hit the water. With steel especially, the pattern is much smaller that one would think, even at 40-50 yds. And that was using a Light-Modified choke.

Kev

-- Edited by Mainehunt on Friday 2nd of December 2011 04:45:32 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Polish Hammer, it would be ridiculous to think one could swing a gun and stretch a shot sting out like waving a stream of water from a garden hose. Hopefully nobody was thinking that is what long and short shot string means sand why a short shot string is better. Look at a 1 ounce load in a 20 gauge vs. a 16ga vs a 12ga vs. 10ga. The shot column is going to be shorter in the larger gauge. This equates to less pellet crushing, less bore scrub and a better pattern with each larger gauge.

In a shotgun short shot strings equals shorter shot column and that means better patterns and more pellets on target plain and simple.

Minnesota John · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Polish Hammer, it would be ridiculous to think one could swing a gun and stretch a shot sting out like waving a stream of water from a garden hose. Hopefully nobody was thinking that is what long and short shot string means sand why a short shot string is better. Look at a 1 ounce load in a 20 gauge vs. a 16ga vs a 12ga vs. 10ga. The shot column is going to be shorter in the larger gauge. This equates to less pellet crushing, less bore scrub and a better pattern with each larger gauge.

In a shotgun short shot strings equals shorter shot column and that means better patterns and more pellets on target plain and simple.

Maybe to you brother but not to me

Skip · Guru

nhcs: Do you think you..... or anyone does...miss birds due to shotstring issues?

Just curious! smile

Skip

nhcrowshooter · Guru

No, unless the load is a blooper. Misses for all us are the result of fundmental wingshooting errors; wrong lead, lifting one's head, stopping one's swing, bad mount, flinch, error in range estimation. A short shot column in the shell is however advantagous to shotshell performance..

Glen · Senior Member

Skip wrote:
nhcs: Do you think you..... or anyone does...miss birds due to shotstring issues?
Just curious!
Skip

Honestly most of my misses are due to poor lead. I have a habit of falling into the "I really want to see the impact" deal. So I lead the close birds too much. I think that at 1100fps+ the shot string is gonna be too short to compensate at the closer range. MAYBE further out it will help but I usually have a higher hit rate around 20-30yds.

M12Shooter · Guru

How does one determine if he/she is shooting a load that delivers a long shot string?

Ted

KenCrow · Senior Member

I agree with Skip....there are 2389 things more important than shot stringing when shooting a shotgun.

I also agree with NHcrowshooter...fundamental human errors are the reasons we miss flying targets. Please see his comments.

Actually, the only way to eliminate shot stringing, almost entirely, is to have a shotgun so large in diameter, or gauge, that all the pellets lay on two dimensions within the shell. That is, the pellets would form a length, and width, while lying in a circular pattern within the shell, but there would not be a column of shot, which prevents the non-existing third dimension. This would eliminate stacking of the shot pellets on top of one another. There would still be some stringing of the pellets, as not all shot enjoy the same ballistic coefficient, due to manufacturing imperfections.

I'll bet that would be a funny looking shotgun shell, with all pellets in one layer! About an inch high, and two inches in diameter!

Kencrow

nhcrowshooter · Guru

According to this article a short string is important for better kills but a longer shot string is more forgiving of an error of too much forward lead.

http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_strategies_shot_string_and_waterfowl_hunting_ballistics_010711.html

M12Shooter · Guru

I would imagine that as a shot charge travels further from its point of origin, the shot string should thus get longer. Didn't yet read your link NH but I will as time permits.

Ted

NGillespie10 · Senior Member

oh boy...here we go again...

Puppypopper · Senior Member

Use a Wad Wizard Choke, problem solved.

8fishermen · Guru

NH, I read the articular, and ok, I'll bite. biggrin

I am not sure I buy into the shot string theory of this fellow. At the end of the article, he refers to a 10 yard shot string. Just how far does that lead shot have to fly before the aft shot is ten yards behind? That doesn't even come close to sounding right.

Also, he says Blister was a mentor of his. I thought Brister's work pointed to shot string having little effect on a moving target? I seem to remember he used a tow behind pattern board to disprove the theory that shot string would elongate the pattern.

I think if the pattern is off the mark and you are blaming the shot string, you need to spend more time working on your shooting form and less time coming up with excuses. According to a professional shooter I know, most miss birds occur by overloading and most clays are missed by under-leading them. He says most people miss in feet, not inches. Shot string will not make up feet. The best of the best may miss by inches, the rest of us miss by feet.