I read the long post about factory shells vs reloads, steel vs lead. Here is my 2 cents. I have been reloading amost 50 years. Trap shooting on and off same period. I have two 9000 Mec loaders one set up for 1 1/8 and one for 1 oz. Before reading articles on Crowbusters I used to load# 6 up to 1450fps. Then I read an article about shot string and pattern inconsistency related to loads over 1250fps. Also read here that it is not shot penetration that kills crows so much as impact of the shot. Now I load # 8 and 9 loaded for 1150 fps and carry some #6 if shooting an area I have shot before. I figure the more shot per shell the better. I do not shoot anything hotter than 1200 fps. I love to reload and I do Agree that best shell made are Rem Nitro but I can not afford 7.00 a box to kill crows.
Like Bob A says try and get your crows in to within 30 yards and lead will kill them all if your shooting skills are that good. Lets face it love, love to shoot and kill crows so I shoot lead at crows 50 yds and have killed some. I may have missed some that would have fallen to steel but what the heck I can not kill them all. I have also started using on new areas that I have not shot before cylinder or imp c. I have had birds within 15 feet of the blind and missed with full chock. First time I switched to open choke got 6 for 6 all within 30 feet of blind
I get very jealous over you guys that kill over 50 birds and Bob A I envy
for the numbers. Here is Ga 40 is the best I have ever done . I do love crow hunting most fun you can have with a shot gun! What ever shot we use or shells kill em and have fun!!
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Hello James, here are my thoughts based on about 10 years less experience in reloading and shotgunning and maybe a little more than you at trapshooting.
Lead deforms easily and when pushed to really a fast m/v it often will not pattern well. The old timers (days of black powder and early nitro powder) used shot shells developing 900 to 1000 fps. That velocity will still kill birds but shot size has to be increased on larger game so that mass makes up for lack of velocity at longer range.
Crows do not die in a different manner than other flying mammals, although some bird appear to be more tenacious to life. Hydraulic shock requires penetration. Single pellet wounds through a lung bring death quickly but not always immediately.
More shot is better to some extent, that is why I like the 2 7/8 10ga.
9's are really a target load and have little place on live game of any kind IMO. I have found at lower velocity, sub 1200 fps lead 6 through full choke can kill a crow through the entire range spectrum a shotgun is capable of; more consistently at longer range than 7, 7.5 and 8. I base this on 40 years of first hand shooting and observation.
Steel is ballistically inefficient compared to lead, and it can damage older guns, cost is also higher, why use it if you don't have to IMO.
If you have missed birds at 3 to 10 yards it was not because of a full choke. The difference in pattern diameter at such close range between IC and Full is mere inches. Like all misses it was probably due to poor/bad gun mount, lifting one's head from the stock, stopping or failing to swing with the bird etc. The idea of using a more open choke to make up for wingshooting skill is not the way to go. Practice, practice, practice is the better way to increase the hit ratio. You said you were a trapshooter, then you know singles targets are shot 30 -35 yds away, relatively close. Do you know anybody who advanced to being AA shooter by switching from full to IC choke? Back to killing birds, a pheasant centered with a full choke at 30 yards ruins a meal, IC much more preferable for a shot like that, a crow centered at 30 yards bring a long plume of feather and a smile.
I try to bring crows in close as you say. But not every crow will do it. You don't always see every crow that did when hunting alone, sometimes they have already spotted you and are exiting. Sometimes they come in many at a time, 2nd and 3rd shots will be at accelerating and exiting crows. Sometimes when you are hunting with a friend you get the 2nd shot, again crows are usually accelerating and exiting. Full choke will kill them dead close and do a better job at longer range so that is why I like it.
Even reloading has become expensive, with lead hitting over $50 a bag in many places it has been hard to keep 1 1/8 loads under $5 a box for sure. Rem Nitros and the STS are great factory shells, the best part about them is the quality of the hull for reloading IMO. $7 a box is cheap compared to what it costs to shoot a load of similiar quality with #6 shot. For the folks who don't reload shot size choice then becomes a matter of price and availability. As you know the reloader has many more options to choose from and can reload shells of equal quality to the Nitro 27 but loaded with #6.
Like you I live where big crow kills are fewer and farther between and numbers like Bob reports absolutely impossible. As you say it is still fun to get out and you have to make the best of what you have.
Welcome aboard.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 22nd of January 2012 09:17:15 PM
I read the long post about factory shells vs reloads, steel vs lead. Here is my 2 cents. I have been reloading amost 50 years. Trap shooting on and off same period. I have two 9000 Mec loaders one set up for 1 1/8 and one for 1 oz. Before reading articles on Crowbusters I used to load# 6 up to 1450fps. Then I read an article about shot string and pattern inconsistency related to loads over 1250fps. Also read here that it is not shot penetration that kills crows so much as impact of the shot. Now I load # 8 and 9 loaded for 1150 fps and carry some #6 if shooting an area I have shot before. I figure the more shot per shell the better. I do not shoot anything hotter than 1200 fps. I love to reload and I do Agree that best shell made are Rem Nitro but I can not afford 7.00 a box to kill crows.
Like Bob A says try and get your crows in to within 30 yards and lead will kill them all if your shooting skills are that good. Lets face it love, love to shoot and kill crows so I shoot lead at crows 50 yds and have killed some. I may have missed some that would have fallen to steel but what the heck I can not kill them all. I have also started using on new areas that I have not shot before cylinder or imp c. I have had birds within 15 feet of the blind and missed with full chock. First time I switched to open choke got 6 for 6 all within 30 feet of blind
I get very jealous over you guys that kill over 50 birds and Bob A I envy
for the numbers. Here is Ga 40 is the best I have ever done . I do love crow hunting most fun you can have with a shot gun! What ever shot we use or shells kill em and have fun!!
James, I load AA hulls with WSF powder & 1 1/4 oz hardened 6s, I'm more than satisfied with these loads. Most of my shots are at least 40 yds & most birds taken with mod choke.
one of the most interesting examinations you can do is to strip the feathers off a dead crow and witness the devastating effects of a shot pattern, it's amazing how few of the shot pellets actually penetrate or even hit the vitals, and for all practical purposes the shotgun could have been called a "shockgun" to describe the method by which it kills through multiple strikes! Always remember in regards to shot size..." Dense Makes Sense".
Well I have never skinned a dead crow but this was the article that I referred to and this was the reason I felt dense was better. I do load and shoot 6s. Fortuately I have shot that is in the low $ 30s and I just think reloading is a great past time.
Any guy that can shoot and reload a 10 ga deserves to kill at long range and God Bless you. Now I have RA so recoil has become a major deal in my shooting. Great post . I knew my 2 cents would get lots of comments but that why we are here!! Good Hunting and Killing Happy New Year All
The crows you shoot still have feathers on them?
My observations are not from skinning dead ones, they died and hit the ground whether one pellet or 100 hit them. It's the birds that took hits that didn't come down that tell you something more.
Reloading is a great past time, I too find it satisfying. 10gacrowshooter and I have to cut the 10ga hulls down to the old standard of 2 7/8" as that length shell is only available from RST. We are shooting 1 1/4 ounce of number 6 through double barrel guns built in the 1889-1906 period. The recoil from one of mine is neglible because the gun weighs 10lb 5 ounces. Which by itself would be tough on shoulders with R/A. That gun has a lot of inertia to keep your swing moving though. I have wear and tear Arthritis in my left shoulder and I feel it at times. Anyway the old 10 bores pattern much better than smaller gauges and give us great confidence when attempting to knock down a high floater that thinks he is out of range.
PS. You did not answer my question on the success of those using IC on trap singles to improve their scores. But if you are a trapshooter both of us already know the answer to that.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 23rd of January 2012 12:22:47 AM
love to shoot and kill crows so I shoot lead at crows 50 yds and have killed some. I may have missed some that would have fallen to steel but what the heck
James,
Steel may be 3 times harder than lead, but has half the energy. Lead is superior. Those 50 yard pokes are long for the 9's. Load up some 7 1/2's and tighten up the choke to modified. 1 1/8 @1200 f.p.s. will get you there for most shots.
one of the most interesting examinations you can do is to strip the feathers off a dead crow and witness the devastating effects of a shot pattern, it's amazing how few of the shot pellets actually penetrate or even hit the vitals, and for all practical purposes the shotgun could have been called a "shockgun" to describe the method by which it kills through multiple strikes! Always remember in regards to shot size..." Dense Makes Sense".
Well I have never skinned a dead crow but this was the article that I referred to and this was the reason I felt dense was better. I do load and shoot 6s. Fortuately I have shot that is in the low $ 30s and I just think reloading is a great past time.
Any guy that can shoot and reload a 10 ga deserves to kill at long range and God Bless you. Now I have RA so recoil has become a major deal in my shooting. Great post . I knew my 2 cents would get lots of comments but that why we are here!! Good Hunting and Killing Happy New Year All
Pete you make a lot of good points and after all we all do this crow hunting because we love to shoot shotguns and have fun outdoors. You said in one of your replys."9's are really a target load and have little place on live game of any kind IMO.
Just to let you know in Bert Popowskis book "Crow Shooting" page 151 he writes" the tighter patterns produced by fine shot will kill more cleanly at all reasonable ranges than fewer larger hunks of wizzing lead" He preferred 8 & 9
So,next time I head out a tighter choke, maybe but will still use 8 and 9 most of the time with 7.5 and 6 if the birds are wise and stay high.
The book btw is a great read. Everyone have fun and stay safe!
Pete you make a lot of good points and after all we all do this crow hunting because we love to shoot shotguns and have fun outdoors. You said in one of your replys."9's are really a target load and have little place on live game of any kind IMO.
Just to let you know in Bert Popowskis book "Crow Shooting" page 151 he writes" the tighter patterns produced by fine shot will kill more cleanly at all reasonable ranges than fewer larger hunks of wizzing lead" He preferred 8 & 9
So,next time I head out a tighter choke, maybe but will still use 8 and 9 most of the time with 7.5 and 6 if the birds are wise and stay high.
The book btw is a great read. Everyone have fun and stay safe!
I have Bert's book and read it. In spite of the number of crows he reportedly shot his preference for 8's and especially 9's are not the best choice for crows unless they are very close, then anything works. My experience is not insignificant. I still believe 9's have very few uses on any game. That shot size is a crippler in most situations, so anyone recommending it for anything is suspect. Bert and other men of his day would have recommended I do not use my Twist and Damascus barrel guns with shells loaded with nitro powder, he and they would have been wrong about that too.
I don't blindly follow or accept what others say is best about most anything. I do my tests and make my own observations. I have shot too many crows with trap load 7.5's that got hit and did not come down whereas the same load filled with 6 produces far more kills and fewer crips.
If you are going to stick to 6 for the wise and high birds why is that? How do you know what the shot is going to be when you load your gun, close or far? The 6 will still work close.
Shoot a bunch of crows with 6's and shoot a bunch with 9's, see which works better. I recommend you and everyone else figures out what works best overall for yourself. Most people shooting small shot do so for the convenience and cost of purchase as an equal load of 6 can be hard to find and or too pricey. If you reload for crows, magnum 6 works much better in my experience.
Pete no doubt you sound like a very experienced shooter. I think under certain hunting situations we are both right. I do in fact shoot 6s not all the time . I will try 8 with a tighter choke and go to 6s with the same choke.and compare. I must admit that I do hit a few that fly off and I see them fall as they fly off and I have had one or two over the last few years actually get up and fly away. There is nothing worse than a cripple running or hopping around in the area of the set up.Then have to chase them and finish them off.
I appreciate your input and I am sure lots of readers will express opinions on the subject. We have yet to hear from the master hunted BOB A . Regards James
Given the volume of birds Bob shoots reloading becomes unwieldy of not impractical. I know he started using bargain 4 pack ammo and was pleased with it's performance. Given the 1000's of birds he shoots each year he is clearly hunting a different environment that most of us.
