Crow Busters Forum

M12Shooter · Guru

Congratulations on Your 100th Birthday!

Bob · Guru

I'll drink to that Ted!

In my opinion the model 12's were one of the very best balanced pump guns ever made. I still use my pigeon grade 20 gauge.

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

Bob wrote:
I'll drink to that Ted!

In my opinion the model 12's were one of the very best balanced pump guns ever made. I still use my pigeon grade 20 gauge.

Bob A.

Even better so with a lead plug in the stock bolt hole smile

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

The Model 12 is one of many venerable gun designs that has withstood the test of time. When I was younger I wanted a pre '64 Heavy Duck 3" 12ga with a solid rib. I understand the rib and barrel were machined from the same piece of steel. Seems like the M12 is like many classic guns, the production costs became prohibitive and manufacture of them ceased. Of course that creates legend and mystique and something to hunt for and collect. Back in the 80's when some M12 trap guns were still seen on the line at an ATA shoot I witnessed two shooters who could shoot doubles with that pump gun as fast or faster than any auto. One of them is still alive today and is currently one of the nation's top senior veteran shooters but he has been shooting a K80 for more than 3 decades now. But back in the day he could break the 2nd target in trap doubles before the empty from the first shot hit the ground using a M12. It was amazing to watch.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 22nd of March 2012 01:58:32 PM

rookie_crow_hunter · Veteran Member

sorry to get off subject but i just got bobs shooting crows that dvd is freakin awsome

M12Shooter · Guru

Bob wrote:
Ted,

I have an old VHS tape that they got from a 16mm movie camera of the late Herb Parsons from Tennessee. They had slow motion shots to show that Mr. Parsons did not keep the trigger depressed, he pulled the trigger with each consecutive shot in his exhibition shooting with his model 12. Mr. Parsons died young, he was in his early 50's.

Bob A.

That would be a great film clip to watch Bob as I don't know how those gifted shooters do it. Further, many of the best shots seem to be middle aged or older which I find strange as ones reflexes start to deteriorate at this age.

Yes sadly Herb Parsons did die young. His death was the result of complications after a minor surgery I believe. The late Tony Dean of South Dakota, another one of my favorite outdoor personalities, also died rather young and in the same manner.

Youtube has a few good clips of Parsons exhibition shooting if anyone is interested.

Ted

-- Edited by M12Shooter on Saturday 24th of March 2012 05:19:47 PM

aprilheadhunter · Member

A little over 18 years ago I kicked flushed a bird off a beautiful point and killed my first bird, I was using my grandfathers model 12 and a few months later my grandfather passed away and the gun was sent half way across the country to a cousin. For about 10 years every time I was in a store that sold used shotguns I tried to connect with another model 12. My friends must have been sick of me dragging them around looking for model 12's because they bought me one as a wedding present.

8fishermen · Guru

aprilheadhunter wrote:
A little over 18 years ago I kicked flushed a bird off a beautiful point and killed my first bird, I was using my grandfathers model 12 and a few months later my grandfather passed away and the gun was sent half way across the country to a cousin. For about 10 years every time I was in a store that sold used shotguns I tried to connect with another model 12. My friends must have been sick of me dragging them around looking for model 12's because they bought me one as a wedding present.

Now that is a cool wedding present. Got to love good friends!

Pat B · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Back in the 80's when some M12 trap guns were still seen on the line at an ATA shoot I witnessed two shooters who could shoot doubles with that pump gun as fast or faster than any auto. One of them is still alive today and is currently one of the nation's top senior veteran shooters but he has been shooting a K80 for more than 3 decades now. But back in the day he could break the 2nd target in trap doubles before the empty from the first shot hit the ground using a M12. It was amazing to watch.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 22nd of March 2012 01:58:32 PM

I have never witnessed this but I have heard the legends and stories of men who could shoot a pump as fast if not faster than a semi.

I gave up trying to be one of them (with my Win 1300) and bought a Win SX3. biggrin

Pat

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Talent trumps experience in many endeavors, expecially in competitive shooting sports, she won her first Olympic medal at age 15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUiN0Sih214

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 24th of March 2012 08:51:31 PM

Lone Star Phil · Senior Member

Pat:

That's true ("the legends and stories of men who could shoot a pump as fast if not faster than a semi") but the 'secret sauce' is those older pump designs did not have a disconnector. Without a disconnector, a capable operator merely has to keep the trigger depressed after the first round is launched and pump quickly, the hammer falling on subsequent rounds when they reach battery.

I know the Winchester Model 1897 does not have a disconnector and I'm sure that Ted can confirm my understanding that Model 12's do not have such a device.

Lone Star Phil · Senior Member

Ted:

Tis a wonderful anniversary! Thanks for bringing it up! Modern society and culture being what it is, we sometimes lose sight of the notion that just because something (or person!) is old, doesn't mean they aren't effective!

Scout 1 · Member

Happy Birthday Model 12! I cut my teeth on the stock of a Model 12, shot one for many years at trap and in the duckblind, and still have one that is my favorite duckin' gun. They're just a great old workhorse, tougher than nails, and IMO beautiful. BTW, they are still in regular service as ATA trap guns here in my region... mostly by guys who you shouldn't bet against LOL. I still remember my M12 trap gun's serial number ... 446666

M12Shooter · Guru

Lone Star Phil wrote:
Ted:

Tis a wonderful anniversary! Thanks for bringing it up! Modern society and culture being what it is, we sometimes lose sight of the notion that just because something (or person!) is old, doesn't mean they aren't effective!

Thanks Lone Star Phil, funny because I happened to be out on my first crow shoot of the year. I had some down time in the blind as crows are not yet that plentiful. Happened to glance at the Winchester Model 12 lettering on the barrrel and the thought hit me!

Only shot nine crows that morning as dipicted in the photo and missed about that many as well. I'm a bit rusty after a long crowless winter. Still it was great to celebrate the 100th aniversary of this fine piece of American shooting culture in this manner!

Further, your quite right on that the M12 will "slam fire" as it had no disconnector.. One in a million exhibition shooters such as the late Herb Parsons would break seven hand thrown clays with a Model 12 pump which I believe was a record at the time. Gifted shooters today such as Tom Knapp and Pat Flannigan have smashed this record but with autos.

Ted

Bob · Guru

Ted,

I have an old VHS tape that they got from a 16mm movie camera of the late Herb Parsons from Tennessee. They had slow motion shots to show that Mr. Parsons did not keep the trigger depressed, he pulled the trigger with each consecutive shot in his exhibition shooting with his model 12. Mr. Parsons died young, he was in his early 50's.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

Hi Ted,

What you are saying about father time is quite true (younger men have faster reflexes) but nothing can beat experience.

Bob A.

Bob · Guru

Experience and talent go hand in hand with one another, you don't become talented without plenty of experience first. Now some people have more talent than others (superior mind set and ability to focus) both in the shotgun sports and billiards. They have an old saying, you can be a very talented person but you can't beat luck if things are not rolling your way.

On the whole when a guy wants to match up with me and I don't know what he's got I go for a race to 7 or 11 in the pool playing game. Any damn fool can get lucky with one or two games, thats why the longer play favors the more experienced player. The same holds true for the shoots that require more endurance and mental toughness during the course of the day while shooting clay pigeons.

Just a small foot note here:

Oakley Kansas is named after Annie Oakley who was from that area in Kansas.

Bob A.