Although these hot, humid days of summer cause me, and probably a lot of other folks, to suffer from "summer doldrums" it is a opportune time to re-fresh and study my books of crow hunting. Books written by Nicholas Karas, Bert Popowski, Dick Mermon, and a few articles in magazines with the subject of crow hunting center focus.
Just reviewing Bert Popowski's book, "Crow Shooting" I found on page 137, second paragraph, these words from that wise man:
" So when you choose a smooth bore for crows, be sure that it's the gun that fits you best and that you can swing the fastest".
These words have been my doctrine for over forty years, as the ultimate guide when purchasing a shotgun, to hunt with for any flying game.
Shotgun brands don't mean much to me. The big b's, Browning, Benelli, Beretta, are often the choice of peer-pressured shooters, but I have never handled one of these brand of shotgun that fit me well enough to buy it and keep it very long.
Next time you are shopping for a shotgun, I suggest that you pick up one, don"t look at the brand, close your eyes, shoulder it as though you were going to shoot a flying target, open your eyes, and very consciously see where the gun is pointing, and pay special attention whether your eye is looking directly down the rib, if it has one. If your eye is'nt looking straight down the center of the barrel, put the gun back on the shelf, and don't bother to look at the brand. It does'nt matter if it was made by NASA, and is gold plated, you will not be able to hit very well with it!
Stay cool, autum is coming, just one day at a time.
I spoke to Bert Popowski quite a few times while he was alive. "A proper gun mount" was one of many discussions I had over the phone with Bert back in the mid 1970's. Bert Popowski was a great guy and a lot of fun to talk too.
In regard to different makes of shotguns, "it's not the bow or the arrow, it's the indian behind it"
As in almost any athletic endeavor you can't hit what you can't see. If your master eye is not lined up right with the muzzle of your shotgun you aint gonna hit bupkiss.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I don't think the average shooter or hunter knows what LOP, DAC, DAH, Cast On, Cast Off and Pitch mean when it comes to shotguns. Most all repeaters and doubles today are sold with cookie cutter dimensions of one size fits all. Competitive shooters learn the importance of fit and adjustable stocks, collectors of old double guns learn about this too as each gun will differ from another in it's dimensions. LOP is a variable that changes with the season, what fits when shooting trap in t-shirt this summer will not fit as well when layerup and shooting crows in November. In my hunting guns 1 5/8" x 2 3/4" x 13 7/8" is about perfect.
Anyone interested.. in this business of "fitting a shotgun" to your specific needs.. please do read the very excellent article.. by Ed Davis. Heck, I suggest everyone read that article. In fact, read ANYTHING by Ed Davis. He is a remarkably knowledgeable shooter.
Yes, the vast majority of shotgunners.. shoot "rack" weapons and many shoot them very well. It is.. the archer not the arrow for sure. But, the archer can most certainly be improved by inproving his arrow ( stock fitting )...like most things.. some more than others.
Getting a fitted stock.. can be expensive. In Mr. Popwski's time, you needed a talentedstock maker to accomplish that..and if you want a completely fine tuned perfectly fitted stock today..go to Italy. Fortunately for 99.9% of us today, all we need to do is buy one of our modern scatterguns.. that come with multiple stock adjusting shims! Not perfect, but good enough to produce most if not all..of the improvements desired. Ken, those shims will do.. LOP, DAC, DAH, Cast Off.. Cast On.... but you will have to do the twisting yourself!
I agree with all remarks made by Bob, NHCrowshooter, Skip, and Administrator. You dudes know the necessity of shotgun fit. Your remarks are appreciated! And you seem to agree with me.
It may surprise you, but all three of my presently owned shotguns that I use for crow shooting, have trap shooting style recoil pads on them. The deep curve of the trap pad helps me position the butt of the gun to my shoulder more consistently than a field grade pad does. If I don't have my shoulder fit into the curvature of the trap pad, I know instantly that I don't have the gun positioned optimally. With a field grade pad, the butt of the gun can easily slid up and down, making consistent positioning of the gun darn near impossible, for me at least.
I have owned four Browning shotguns, one Beretta, a slew of Remingtons, a few Winchesters, and some other makes also. As of right now, I don't own a one of those guns. They just did'nt fit! Even after I adjusted the stock on the Beretta, cut the length of pull, shot it for four years, it never fit me.
Trying to shoot a shotgun that does'nt fit the shooter, is like dancing with a fat girl that's 5'5'' tall and weighs 240 lbs. She ain't gonna fit! No matter how hard you squeeze 'er! Now, have a few dances with a blonde dish thats 5'5", 115 lbs, and her personal stock is 36-24-36, and you'll find that her stock fits your butt! Wanna bet?
Hey, there is an article that I wrote for the Advanced Section of Crow Busters a number of years ago called "Be Prepared Part 1" Some of this article goes along with a good gun mount and some tips "before you get the shot off"
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I agree, that most people buy a shotgun solely based on brand alone, and not on the fit. I shot an 870 for quite a while that fit me pretty well, I was happy with the way I shot it..........I wanted to upgrade to a semi 6 or 7 years ago, and I went to a gun shope and picked up every semi that they had there, I ended up with a Browning Gold that fit me pretty well too, and I shoot it good.........recently I won 2 guns at a gun raffle, and instead of taking the guns, I took store credit towards whatever I wanted........I again picked up every shotgun in the rack: Browning Silver, Maxus, Beratta Xtrema, Benelli SBE II, SBEI, Vinci, Super Vinci, Remington Versamax, 1187, Winchester SX2, SX3, and a Verona.....................I knew as soon as I pulled the Vinci up, it was the gun I was leaving there with......it fits me really really well, I havent shot it much, but so far I am very happy with the weight, way that it feels, and how it swings........Plus after using the checks for the guns, it only cost me around 300 dollars.....
Funny thing is, I swore that I would never buy a Benelli because most people just buy them because of all of the hype surrounding them, and I'm not sure that I would have had I had to pay full price...........but I guess you cant argue with a gun that fits you well..........
The nice thing about the (quality) new semis is, that they come with spacers for the stock. If you're experienced you can adjust the stock yourself, a good shop will help the others. This way you'll have a semi fitted stock in minutes for a good price - provided that you have "normal" built and no special requirements (e.g. Eye dominance issues...)
Mine is a Franchi Predator and it kicks like a mule :) The Winchester SX.. fells nice, kicks less, but lacks features I like in the franchi which is made by benelli... A "reasonable" budget gun that I really like is the Webley & Scott 812. If I had seen it before I bought the Franchi... Who knows?? My Dad has the Browning fusion. I don't like it. It feels "wrong". But that's shotguns for you....
NH brought up a good point as to how the gun fits you with differen't layers of clothing on. This is why I have all my guns fitted with a straight butt stock with no drop at the comb. This helps me because my head is always in the same place with a straight stock. When I have more clothing on during the winter I have the same sight picture as if I were wearing a t shirt during the summer months.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
This is why I have all my guns fitted with a straight butt stock with no drop at the comb. This helps me because my head is always in the same place with a straight stock. When I have more clothing on during the winter I have the same sight picture as if I were wearing a t shirt during the summer months.
Bob A.
Bob, how would this possible? If a gun were to have no drop at the comb it would mean the the top forward edge of the stock (measurement B in diagram) would be in straight line with the rib making it impossible to get your head low enough on the stock to look down the rib. It is the Length of Pull (number inches from front trigger to end of middle of stock) that must be adjusted for the bulk of winter clothing. Dimensions such as Drop at Comb, Drop at Heel and LOP can be identical for a straight stock or pistol grip. I can guarantee your guns have drop at the comb, question is how much. Why not measure up youir favorite and give us the DAC, DAH and LOP. It would be good for everyone to know how to do this as a start to figuring out what fits them best.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 1st of August 2012 02:04:11 PM
NH brought up a good point as to how the gun fits you with differen't layers of clothing on. This is why I have all my guns fitted with a straight butt stock with no drop at the comb. This helps me because my head is always in the same place with a straight stock. When I have more clothing on during the winter I have the same sight picture as if I were wearing a t shirt during the summer months.
Go to the Advanced Articles section and look at the straight butt stock, mine are straighter than that example on my guns.
Bob A.
Bob, you didn't answer my questions but that is OK. Looking at a gun doesn't really tell you how straight the stock is, small differences, 1/8" can make a big difference. Generally the "straightest" stocked guns are purpose built trap guns, (and they have some drop at the comb). Trap guns are designed to shoot high, well above the point of aim. The idea is the trapshooter is always shooting a rising bird and the gun helps compensate for that, trapshooters also learn to float the bird above the bead so they can see if it is affected by the wind and not lose sight of it by covering it with the barrel as you would have to do with a field gun of normal dimensions. I have a Parker that was built for trapshooting and or live pigeons with and english style grip that is very straight 1 7/16" x 2 3/8" x 14 3/8". I have shot a lot of 25's with it but it's a very high shooting gun and a tad on the long side with hunting clothes. Less drop at the comb makes a gun shoot high, a shorter length pull accomodates the added bulk of insulated clothing. The two interact but it is the LOP that is adjusted for heavy or lighter clothing. So regardless of grip style what dimensions fit you best, perhaps you like a high shooting gun like a trap gun but you certainly do not have or shoot a gun "with no drop at the comb", but if you are using a gun like that post up a picture please.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 1st of August 2012 07:48:36 PM
I only hunt crows during the fall & winter months. Early in the season we get some temperatures in the mid 80 degree range and by sundown it can be in the 60 degree range. Later on it can be from the mid 40's to single digets outside.
Bob A.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
I will post up a photo, my guns shoot 50/50 or right where you point them.
Bob A.
Ok that is great, why don't you share with us what they measure, you should be able to figure out where/how to measure them from the graphics I posted.
PS. Looking at the picture on we can see the gun clearly has drop at the comb, probably around 1 1/2" is my guess.
-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Wednesday 1st of August 2012 11:33:53 PM
The butt stock is straight and I have the same sight picture no matter what I am wearing. They shoot where I point them and thats what is important to me.
__________________
To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
The butt stock is straight and I have the same sight picture no matter what I am wearing. They shoot where I point them and thats what is important to me.
Ok then, glad it's workin out for you, seems your gun measurements fall under confidential information. Your gun can't be too straight as stocks go or it would not shoot 50/50 point of aim. Heavy insulated clothing does effect length of pull, nobody is immune from that. Maybe you don't hunt in sub freezing temps but we do and that makes it a factor.
On my butt stock the drop at comb is the same as the drop at heel, thats pretty straight and I like it that way because I hunt in all types of weather, some in the single digets. My sight picture is always the same no matter what I am wearing.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
One other thing, in very cold weather I am not bundled up like a lot of fellas. I wear a goose down parka and it traps a lot of body heat. I am also out of the wind when hunting in my blinds.
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To listen to this radio talk show go to episode 12, Bob Aronsohn
