Crow Busters Forum

nhcrowshooter · Guru

A good thread on ShotgunWorld - Large vs. small pellets

TexasMatt · Senior Member

Did they come to a concensus? I read most of the first page, and it seemed to be a repeat of the same debates we've had on this board.

Big Honkers · Guru

They didnt really get into the true question of the poster. There was more talk about the "verbage" rather than the actual issue.

The one thing I did learn, however, is that Randy Wakeman likes to talk too much.

BH

Zeddicus · Senior Member

There will never be a concensus.

Skip · Guru

Zeddicus: You are absolutely positively correct. There will never be a concensus on shot size, chokes, gauge, etc..etc. for crow hunting. They are all indivual choices! What works for one.. may not work for another.

skip

MagnumMagpie · Member

Aiming is the most important

Critter · Veteran Member

I think a easy concensus would be that Randy Wakeman talks too much.

Zeddicus · Senior Member

MagnumMagpie wrote:
Aiming is the most important

Nah. When you start to aim, you might as well leave it. ( but I know what you mean ;) Confidence! That's important. And luck. And practice. Cause the more I practice, the luckier I get! :)

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Skip wrote:
Zeddicus: You are absolutely positively correct. There will never be a concensus on shot size, chokes, gauge, etc..etc. for crow hunting. They are all indivual choices! What works for one.. may not work for another.
skip

No there will never be consensus but if you don't know that 6's work best for crows you haven't been paying attention.

Bob · Guru

I think I'll stay with a trap load!

Zeddicus · Senior Member

nhcrowshooter wrote:
Skip wrote:
Zeddicus: You are absolutely positively correct. There will never be a concensus on shot size, chokes, gauge, etc..etc. for crow hunting. They are all indivual choices! What works for one.. may not work for another.
skip
No there will never be consensus but if you don't know that 6's work best for crows you haven't been paying attention.

Lol ;) Actually I shoot 5's, but the english type, so they are 2.8mm. I hope you can forgive me. :)

MagnumMagpie · Member

Shoot with whatever you have, i've made kills from trap and skeet loads, to magnum 3# when i'm running out of lighter loads.
Bob mentioned the trap loads, and I also think that they are far more effective than other 7# or 6#, even 5#, the pellets of the trap loads , are very hard due to the larger antimony percentage and the killing goes far.Plus you save recoil.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Hi Ken,

That hardness comparison came from a shooting/reloading website I found last year and posted on here at that time, link to it is below. I think you should chat with 10gacrowshooter who has a patterning range outside his basement where his reloading room is about patterns. How many crows at or past 50 yards do we kill, quite a few, perhaps as much as 20% of our season totals and with about a 50% kill to shot ratio. Hitting them at that range is not much more difficult that posting a good score from the 27 yard line in trapshooting. The old 10ga doubles give us an edge as they are throwing 80 to 90% 40yd patterns depending on which one of our guns and loads is used and the #6 has the mass for retained energy necessary for long range penetration and tight patterns. So what kills crow's, a well placed shot penetrating the vital organs. I think we "shoot" crows more than we "hunt" crows as they are pretty easy to find and shoot with less effort than other game.

Oddly enough the harder a lead pellet is (through the addition of antimony) the lighter it becomes.

In a few years we will all be shooting harder shot when we will be forced to use non-tox shot for crows.

http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8315&sid=b44973d6e80db94af28d7ba3f9bf716c

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 28th of July 2012 07:49:20 PM

nhcrowshooter · Guru

MagnumMagpie wrote:
Bob mentioned the trap loads, and I also think that they are far more effective than other 7# or 6#, even 5#, the pellets of the trap loads , are very hard due to the larger antimony percentage and the killing goes far.Plus you save recoil.

Except you can't buy factory shells with as much antimony percentage as reloaders use. Taken from another web site.

Recoil is the same, #6 shot in a trap load recipe has the same recoil but the killing goes even farther.

Relative Hardness on a scale of 1 to 100.

Lawrence Magnum =100
Eagle Magnum =97
Federal Premium Flyer= 95
B&P F2 Mach = 92
Remington Nitro 27's =91
Federal Gold Medal Paper =91
West Coast Magnum = 91
Lawrence Magnum Copper =87
Winchester SuperSport =84
Federal Premium Field Copper =77
Fiocchi Nickel Little Rhino =74
Remington Nitro Express =73
Winchester Black Diamond Nickel =70
Gamebore White Gold Nickel =68
Remington Game Load 16ga =68
Fiocchi (Italy) HV Field =68

MagnumMagpie · Member

Try competition trap loads , 24gr #7,5, almost any brand has , all i've used seem to be hard.

My favorites are NSI diamont trap, and RC competion trap.

Never done an accurate hardness test myself , but the pellets seem to resist hammering.

Bob · Guru

There are pluses and minuses for reloading for crows. On the plus side you can keep chamber pressure down depending on the components you use, get superior patterns and shoot whatever shot size you want too. I loved reloading my own hulls for almost 40 years, it is very satisfying to roll your own.

The down side is having to find all your hulls when you get done shooting. In high weeds you are going to loose many hulls if you get a good shoot. If you don't reload you don't even have to pick up your hulls which saves time when the shoot ends at sundown. Just take the empty shell boxes with you and the under growth will cover up those emptys with in the next 12 months. If I am not saving all that much (cost) it isn't worth my time to reload any more. I can buy loaded trap loads in bulk for not much more than you would spend to reload them.

As to shot size it makes no never mind to me what a guy likes to shoot, all that matters to me is what I like to shoot at Mr. Crow. There is an old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it"

Bob A.

KenCrow · Senior Member

NHcrowshooter,

Where did you get your data for relative hardness of shot by various manufacturers?

If any of you read my article in the spring issue of "The Varmint Hunter Magazine" and studied the patterns, it becomes easy to understand why it is difficult to kill crows past 40-50 yards with any shot size. The article title is "Hitting is Understandable, Missing is Mysterious". Yes, you sure will kill some, but how many crows, past 50 yards? Furthermore, how do you accurately guess the actual range of a flying crow? My only judgement of when to shoot, is how big does the crow look. If it looks big enough to shoot, based on 40 years of crow shooting experience, then I shoot. And I really don't give a flying fart what kills the sucker; whether it's shot penetration, shock, heart attack, or just one look at my ugly mug, just as long as I hear a plop sound about 2 seconds after I shoot!

I'm sure we all would love to have a shot load where each pellet has the power of a No. 4, the quantity of No. 10's and shoot a perfect modified pattern every shot. But physics rears its supreme head and does'nt allow such in a practical shotgun shell.

Understanding your own shotgun performance with each type of shell you shoot, will pay bigger dividends than blathering about shock, penetration, etc. So what kill's crows? That's easy, a good crow hunter!

Skip · Guru

Not entering the "large vs. small" shot discussion here.. that continues to be of interest to some, but nhcs next to last sentence contains a rarely known but very salient fact. The harder the shot ( that we tout as being necessary for better patterns at longer distances ) the lighter each individual pellet becomes as antimony ( the hardening alloy in lead shot ) is lighter than lead. With that said, pellets from Lawrence Magnum shot with a relative hardness of 100 must, therefore, be lighter than ANY other shot referenced.

I do not think it is a coincidence that the two ( or 3 of you count B&P ) well known competition loads: Federal Gold and Remington Nitro.. have the same relative hardness--91.. and B&P 92. What is happening here is a delicate balance between weight and hardness...the best of both worlds if I may. This balance was the end product of decades of tests by Remington/Federal R&D folks ( and B&P and others I am sure ).. with various alloy mixtures...that resulted in finding the best balance for effective shot.

If the relative hardness chart is correct and I have no reason to doubt it, then it would be accurate to say that a Lawrence pellet in ANY size.. would weigh less..be lighter.. than the same pellet from any of the other manufacturers mentioned. At some point, lightness becomes an enemy of long range shooting.. as does softness become the enemy of long range shooting. Hence, the delicate balance.

Skip

Bob · Guru

Anyone here know the hardness of the El Cheapo loads they sell at Walmart?

I shoot the Federal Top Guns, the Walmart Federal Field & Target Load and the Remington Gun Club Loads in 7 1/2's and 8's.

Dick likes the Winchester Universal target load in 7 1/2's.

What I have found over the past 5 seasons in shooting these types of ammo is that once you get geared to it you can kill crows just as far as the premium ammo. I never would have thought this was possible prior to 5 years ago.

Bob A.

M12Shooter · Guru

Federal Top Guns for me, 7 1/2 shot. I used to shoot a lot of Federal Champion Papers as well. Pleasant aroma of spent shells but way too expensive and almost impossible to find up here.these days. I feel Federal make some fine ammunition as that's their specialty. When I drop down to my 16 gauges I usually shoot Federal field loads with 1 ounce of #8 shot. These kill crows cleanly out to 35 or 40 yards...if I do my part biggrin

Ted

Glen · Senior Member

Shot size doesn't matter if you can't hit what you're shooting at. I am proof positive of that!! biggrin biggrin

However I do like 7 1/2 shot simply because it's what I can buy the most of locally & for a good price.

chip · Guru

I think its the shooter not the shot!!! You have guy's that simply can't shoot and never will be able to. Then you have the average shooter. And there is the dude that is gonna dunp 9 out 10 birds with the tenth bird flying off real heavy and the shooter scratching his head. That's the guy that will enter the shot size debate. FPS and consistancy is what it's all about. I have to make an adjustment from 1200's to 1250's. The average shooter doesn't even look at fps he just buy's the cheapest per case and thinks he has had a great day shooting 55 or 60 percent

nhcrowshooter · Guru

"However I do like 7 1/2 shot simply because it's what I can buy the most of locally & for a good price."

That is probably the #1 reason for shot size choice for crow hunting.

For those who reload, take your favorite 12ga 1 1/8 ounce load with a MV between 1145 and 1250 fps and load it with magnum #6 shot. You'll will see improved performance over the smaller shot. Do not take mine or anyone else's word for it, simply try it for yourself.

If a fella can fell a crow with 60% of his shots he has nothing to be ashamed of, that is good shooting.

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