Crow Busters Forum

Switchy · Newbie

Advice needed!!

jacobhwrd · Senior Member

Having a more open choke will absolutely help you out. The things you're talking about hunting need about half the amount of choke restriction that you have in your gun. Now that being said I don't know if I would have the gun itself modified or just get a different gun. I wouldn't buy a gun that has a fixed choke either. Always make sure you can just change choke tubes.

motiondecoy · Member

I would probably shoot them at the range you can hit them at....consistently..it's a learning thing to be sure....if they are close enough I just shoot and my tough luck if i miss.....but try this if they are close lead by a nose and this si probably 40 yards then lead a bit more..if you are using heavy loads because of consistently longer ranges well a little more lead....if it is very windy you almost need no lead at all within skeet ranges or clay pigeons range....if they have a tail wind then just shoot dead on .

They are not easy to hit in any case.

boba · Guru

If it's a very expensive firearm I would leave it alone and trade it for a shotgun with screw in chokes.

The more experience you get the more you can go with a full choke if that is what you desire, but not for now. Improved cylinder or modified are pretty hard to beat as most shots will fall with in 20 to 40 yards. Full choke is just to tight for the average shooter on birds that are 20 to 40 yards.

Good luck.

Switchy · Newbie

Thank you for your replies that is a big help. I bought the gun new which is a Lanber Field so it's not in the same price range as Baretta etc. If I get it bored does this damage the gun long term or is it an easy procedure that won't effect the life time or value? My successful hits are at close range but at long range I'm not making contact, I probably have a 1/10 ratio which is very embarrassing, I would like to join a club but I feel I should wait until I shoot better. I kind of feel having the gun a year now and I'm only slightly better I should opt for a rebore then maybe further down the line invest in a multi choke, thanks again for your help, only found this forum by chance but I think il get some great advice from it, just invested in decoys and hide to try and help rid our crow problem on the farm

boba · Guru

If you are shooting a double or over & under get it choked Improved cylinder and modified. If it's a pump or semi auto you can split the difference and get it changed to light modified.

I used to love going to this Irish Pub in Kansas City where they served "Belfast Bombers" most people couldn't walk after having a few of those!

Switchy · Newbie

Thanks for your advice Bob, its an over and under, what's the difference between choked improved and modified? For example should I turn the full into half and the half into 1/4 ?

ha I will need to see if I can get a Belfast bomber, try and source yourself a baby Guinness they are usually good to start a night out!!

Old Artilleryman · Guru

Switchy wrote:
Thanks for your advice Bob, its an over and under, what's the difference between choked improved and modified? For example should I turn the full into half and the half into 1/4 ?
ha I will need to see if I can get a Belfast bomber, try and source yourself a baby Guinness they are usually good to start a night out!!

Most of the other long-time shotgunners here have seen this, perhaps not. It helped this new scattergunner understand some of the fundamentals. Look at the upper right hand corner for the choke chart.

M12Shooter · Guru

Fixed chokes are a thing of the past these days. Most modern shotguns come with screw in type chokes of one type or another... shoot IC or Improved modified and get some training. Also a patterning board can be your best friend.!

Ted

Big Honkers · Guru

In my opinion, lots of practice will help A LOT MORE than an adjustment in choke.

Good shooters will shoot well no matter what choke they are using.

BH

nhcrowshooter · Guru

First off you don't know what your gun is actually choked until you pattern test it. It may say it's full and half (modified) but it may very well pattern full and fuller. Lanbar's are not expensive double guns so you would not hurt the value. Opening chokes and having it done right could cost you $120 to $200 in the US plus shipping to have both barrels done. If the gun fits you measure it and find out the length of pull, drop at comb and drop at heel so you can buy another gun with the same fit. If it were me I would sell or trade it and get another good fitting gun choked IC (quarter) and M (half).

BH that's a great post and I agree but the IC will help him gain confidence as he learns to wingshoot and confidence is everything.

boba · Guru

All sound advise on here, you have to learn to crawl before you can walk or run.

Since you have an over & under almost all people have the bottom barrel more open than the top barrel. Have the bottom barrel Improved cylinder (a tighter choke than straight cylinder) and the top modified choke.

motiondecoy · Member

Mr. honkers got it right...best way going actually...get to know your shot gun first....

Island Shooter · Guru

"Fixed chokes are a thing of the past these days. Most modern shotguns come with screw in type chokes of one type or another..."

Ted, got to disagree with you on this one. While most guns now come with chokes, more and more competitive shooters use fixed choked guns these days. I shoot sporting clays competitively and recently moved up to a mod & mod F.C. gun.

The theory is that "choke changers" waste mental energy worrying about choke choice rather than looking at the bird and sticking with their basic shoot routine. I.C. will break 100 yd. targets and full choke will break 15 yd. rabbits.

Let the arguments begin!

Demi

-- Edited by Island Shooter on Monday 11th of January 2016 03:46:23 PM

boba · Guru

I.C. will break 100 yard targets? Really?

Island Shooter · Guru

Bob,

In fact it will. And, not to get off topic, when shooting extreme distances with a shotgun, the tighter your choke the worse the pattern! It has to do with several things, but most of which is the tight restriction at the end of the barrel and how it distorts the outside pellets of the shot column. Those flattened-out pellets go off as "flyers" and don't do much good.

Another factor is the heavy loads (1 1/4 & 1 1/8 oz.). The extra pellets make for a higher shot column which creates more weight and will flatten the lower pellets when the shot goes off, creating more flyers.

I have played around with extreme clay targets quite a bit and have measured (with a laser) distances of up to 115 yards. It's quite a rush to shoot at a target then watch it break a second or so as you lower the gun! Once a group of us were shooting a 100+ yd. target and one of the guys broke a target into 6-8 pieces using # 8½ shot with I.C. chokes!

We routinely shoot targets at 80-85 yards practicing for sporting clays tournaments and last year I took a dove at 92 yards (my longest shot on game).

Watch this video of George Digweed shooting a rising teal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k

Enjoy!

Demi

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Island Shooter wrote:
Bob,
In fact it will. And, not to get off topic, when shooting extreme distances with a shotgun, the tighter your choke the worse the pattern! It has to do with several things, but most of which is the tight restriction at the end of the barrel and how it distorts the outside pellets of the shot column. Those flattened-out pellets go off as "flyers" and don't do much good.
Another factor is the heavy loads (1 1/4 & 1 1/8 oz.). The extra pellets make for a higher shot column which creates more weight and will flatten the lower pellets when the shot goes off, creating more flyers.
I have played around with extreme clay targets quite a bit and have measured (with a laser) distances of up to 115 yards. It's quite a rush to shoot at a target then watch it break a second or so as you lower the gun! Once a group of us were shooting a 100+ yd. target and one of the guys broke a target into 6-8 pieces using # 8½ shot with I.C. chokes!
We routinely shoot targets at 80-85 yards practicing for sporting clays tournaments and last year I took a dove at 92 yards (my longest shot on game).
Watch this video of George Digweed shooting a rising teal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k
Enjoy!
Demi

As if a gun throwing a 50% pattern at 40 yards (IC) would have a tighter pattern at 50, 60, 70, 80+ yards than a gun shooting 70 to 90% at 40 yards. I guess I missed the news when the laws of physics were repealed.

Since you brought up George Digweed, a crow shooter, sporting clays world champion, and record holder for long range clay pigeon shooting, you might check into what he shoots all the time, it's a Perazzi MX-2000 choked full and full. I guess he is not aware of your theory.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Monday 11th of January 2016 07:20:02 PM

boba · Guru

Demi I know that some guns with more open chokes like very large sized shot but a hundred yards, you would have to hold over so far that you wouldn't be able to see the target! I just don't buy it, most of the population couldn't even see a clay bird at 100 yards let alone hit it.

I would also like to watch Mr. Digweed shoot at the ranges he claims and the types of angles he is hitting at that range. The film clips really do not show the birds flight pattern. A clay target going straight away and rising could be hit with the right guy doing the shooting and choke and shot combination. But any crossing shots? I'm very skeptical, I would have to see it in person to believe it.

boba · Guru

Demi, so how far do you have to hold over to hit a dove at 92 yards? How do you know it was that far?

The rest of us mortals will have to be content shooting doves at half that distance and closer.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

boba wrote:
Demi I know that some guns with more open chokes like very large sized shot but a hundred yards, you would have to hold over so far that you wouldn't be able to see the target! I just don't buy it, most of the population couldn't even see a clay bird at 100 yards let alone hit it.

I would also like to watch Mr. Digweed shoot at the ranges he claims and the types of angles he is hitting at that range. The film clips really do not show the birds flight pattern. A clay target going straight away and rising could be hit with the right guy doing the shooting and choke and shot combination. But any crossing shots? I'm very skeptical, I would have to see it in person to believe it.

George Digweed's "claims" as you call them were done in front of audience, measured and witnessed. Crossing shots, what, shooting a springing teal at 130 yards and braking it is not impressive LOL. Skeptical you say, Digweed is what a 20 time world champion in sporting clays. It's not like he has made claims that can not really be measured, proved or not witnessed........you know like saying you shot some huge number of crows LOL.

boba · Guru

Hi Pete,

Like I mentioned before you can not see the clay birds flight path in the film clips. Springing teal, here again you can't see the flight path of the clay birds so you really don't know if they are crossing or just a straight away target that is climbing.

I'm not taking anything away from him being a world champ I am just skeptical he can hit a clay bird going left to right or visa versa at 130 yards. Straight away and climbing where you have much more of a target to hit I'll buy; but not on crossing shots. The side of a clay bird at that range you can't even see and you can't hit what you can't see let alone the hold over to try and lob the shot on the mark. I would have to see it in person to believe it.

This reminds me of some of the pro pool players who do trick shots on a pool table. While they are fun to watch and the crowds love them including me they have no practical application to becoming a better pool player.

nhcrowshooter · Guru

If a man can break a moving clay pigeon even if it is only going up and down, on face, at 130 yards with shotgun, and do it with some consistency he is a helleva shot. You might consider it a trick shot and it would certainly be fun to watch. Given his 20 World Championships I would say he has got plenty skill for exhibition, competitive and game shooting. More than any of us on this board can dream of.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Tuesday 12th of January 2016 11:09:13 AM

boba · Guru

Pete,

I would go head to head with Mr. Digweed any time on crows. I would love to meet him in person just for the experience even if his personality is a bit lack luster.

If he has 20 world titles under his belt he is a very salty shooter.

Island Shooter · Guru

Bob and Pete,

For the record, I know that George Digweed shoots a Perazzi choked full/full. He also shoots #6 (European) loads made by Gamebore, which would be the same as our #7. See attached photo, which was taken after we shot the FITASC World Championship in Cyprus on '08. That is his trophy, not mine biggrin biggrin !

He earned the name King George by collecting 26 (not 20) world championships so far! To boot, he's a really nice guy who can tell some great stories!

With good (20/20) eyesight, it is quite easy to see 108mm clay targets, particularly when it is all belly or face. And speaking of those targets, note that European targets are 110mm, which is slightly larger than ours. Hitting them at 100+ yds., unless you are King George, takes practice and it is not a high-percentage game.

When we do it, we take a looping or curling target, usually off a lift (for better visibility). We start out at maybe 50 yds. and shoot until we can consistently hit the target. We then back up another 10 yards and repeat. By the time you know it, you are at extreme distances. Note that it is a very big help to have at least one person shooting who can see the shot cloud in order to mark where each shooter is when he/she misses.

As you extend the shots and particularly at or beyond 100 yards, you are shooting higher due to gravity taking the shot down. Yes, you can see the target, but your barrel is well above it. I do not measure lead, so I'm not sure how much higher, but I'd guess you are shooting a good 3' above the targets at 100 yds. For crossing targets, the forward lead is incredible, even it is travelling slowly.

Bob, I too would like to see a head-to-head crow shoot between the two of you. No offence, but my money would be on George...there is nobody who is more competitive when it comes to shooting!!

Demi

boba · Guru

Hello Demi,

It would be fun indeed to share a crow blind for a few days with Mr. Digweed.

Is that you in the photo Demi? If it is it is a good photo of the both of you.

Demi, the width of a clay target in the USA is a tad under 2 inches if memory serves me right. I can see why you shoot at targets that are looping where you can see more of the target.

I suppose you and George shoot at targets that far away is just to be able to say you did it. I'm no different in respect to some of the days I get afield during the crow season.

No offence taken, I love competition at any level, the higher the better.

motiondecoy · Member

All well and good for the clay pigeon shoots but i love watching George Digweed shooting crows the best....just funny. I hate the way the English and European crows sound......there is some raven in Europe or some where that sounds like an American common crow btw; I found that fascinating!

Island Shooter · Guru

Bob,

In the sporting clays world (USA), we shoot three different sizes of targets; 108mm - Standard (approx. 4¼ inches), 90mm - Midi (approx. 3½ inches), and 60mm - Mini (approx. 2.3 inches). The majority of targets we shoot are the standards with the next being Midi... most clubs throw 80-90% standards. The 60mm Mini (or Super Mini) are getting to be pretty rare. You will see a Mini at maybe about 20% of the clubs.

As far as the width or height, most targets are about 1" high, with the exception being the battue, which is a 108 mm target, but only about 1/4" thick... It can really slice through the air at incredible speeds, or be thrown slower. Beyond 25 or 30 yds., most target setters will turn the target so the shooters see more of the dome or belly.

At extreme distances, most of the targets we shoot are Standards. I have played around with long distance Midis, but only out to about 80-90 yds. I've never shot 60mm Minis as they would be an unfair target at those ranges. In a tournament, it is rare to see a mini thrown beyond 20-30 yds.

The major factor in keeping 90's and 60's closer is not as much about visibility, but patterns. It is very easy to put a full pattern on a 60mm mini at 50 yds. and still have it slip by without being hit...just not enough surface area.

Hope this helps.

Demi

P.S. Yes, that is me in the pix, but I quit wearing those glasses and my hair is now shorter.

-- Edited by Island Shooter on Tuesday 12th of January 2016 06:43:58 PM

boba · Guru

Your hair is shorter?

I see you have a big part in the middle.

It's not everyday a guy gets to rub shoulders with a 26 time world champ.

So when you were in Cyprus did you stay with the Turks or the Greeks? They have been fighting over control over that damn Island for over 500 years now. Hey, talking about Islands, how far are you from John's Island? I have a good friend who lives there.

Island Shooter · Guru

The Cyprus trip was an experience! After a couple of delays at the airport (guns & rental car), we drove almost all night looking a hotel...ours sold out rooms. We live two islands past Johns Island.., about 15 miles.

M12Shooter · Guru

Digweed and the Brits shoot crows in a much different manner than us here in North America it seems. Tend to have quite conspicuous blinds and put deeks out in front as one would in a duck hunting situation. From the videos I have watched it seems shots are longer and birds are slipping back as crows do. Even have a sporting clays presentation called "the crow"...where a target will appear from over a stand of trees and slip back. I am like many hunters on this side of the pond as my deeks are usually very tight to my blind. Can often knock them down with my gun barrel if I wanted to.

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
Digweed and the Brits shoot crows in a much different manner than us here in North America it seems. Tend to have quite conspicuous blinds and put deeks out in front as one would in a duck hunting situation. From the videos I have watched it seems shots are longer and birds are slipping back as crows do. Even have a sporting clays presentation called "the crow"...where a target will appear from over a stand of trees and slip back. I am like many hunters on this side of the pond as my deeks are usually very tight to my blind. Can often knock them down with my gun barrel if I wanted to.

Ted

Just like the Revolutionary War, the Brits were out in the open and the Americans fought from behind cover, a great technique that has led to a bad outcome for the Brits and crows biggrin

M12Shooter · Guru

nhcrowshooter wrote:
M12Shooter wrote:
Digweed and the Brits shoot crows in a much different manner than us here in North America it seems. Tend to have quite conspicuous blinds and put deeks out in front as one would in a duck hunting situation. From the videos I have watched it seems shots are longer and birds are slipping back as crows do. Even have a sporting clays presentation called "the crow"...where a target will appear from over a stand of trees and slip back. I am like many hunters on this side of the pond as my deeks are usually very tight to my blind. Can often knock them down with my gun barrel if I wanted to.

Ted
Just like the Revolutionary War, the Brits were out in the open and the Americans fought from behind cover, a great technique that has led to a bad outcome for the Brits and crows

Rebels changed the direction of warfare! On the other front...I like the crows in tight...best way to ensure hight shot to kill ratios. smile

Ted

Skip · Guru

I was lucky enough in 2006 to visit England for 10 days to shoot their version of the "common" crow ( it does not sound like ours as motiondecoy mentioned ), Jackdaws, Rooks and the fantastic Wood Pigeon. Both their crow and Jackdaw responded quickly to an American crow call but not so much the Rooks. The surprise bird of the trip, however, was the Wood Pigeon.. called a "Woodie". Strong flying bird, never half speed, all colored the same, and somewhat larger than our pigeon. They appear only in England and what a fine target! All those birds are considered varmints with no limit or closed season. Sorry to report, Sir George did not make an appearance though he would have been hugely welcome~!! smile

Skip

Wingsetter · Senior Member

Interesting listening /reading to you talk of chokes, and I'm a full believer in full choke for clays and a 30 " barrel to. I've shot league and tournaments, also shot skeet IC or CYL 28". When it comes to hunting though Modified or IC through a 28"--2 3/4 to 3.5"... Anyway it's nice to be able to swap out chokes,, and for the anyone with a fixed choke a gunsmith can thread you barrel if it isn't worn out for tubes.