Crow Busters Forum

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Ithaca 51 12ga (Pattern tested)

M12Shooter · Guru

Interesting...why was the 7/8th ounce load chosen for the pattern testing? This would be your choice of hunting load?

Ted

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Because my reloader was set up for 7/8 ounce for clay bird season and when hand counting pellets for pattern testing lighter is better biggrin

I usually shoot 1 and 1 1/8 ounce of #6 in a 12ga for crows, but in this gun 7/8 ounce would work just fine. The gun cycles the 7/8 ounce loads perfectly and a 12ga gas auto shooting 7/8 ounce loads is very easy on the shoulder.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Thursday 26th of May 2016 01:02:17 AM

M12Shooter · Guru

Understood! I shoot a gajillion of 7/8 ounce loads at clays each summer. Mainly 16 yard trap, skeet and 5 stand.

Ted

Butch · Guru

nhc,

Enjoy these posts and pics of "Dads" guns , thanks for sharing and the tips.

Butch

KenCrow · Senior Member

NH

It's damn good to see that someone besides me, and a couple of others on this website, understand the value of pattern testing with a shotgun. I've tried to mentor this fun aspect of shotgun shooting into peoples heads for 40 years. I guess if their gun goes bang when they pull the trigger, then all is well. Ignorance is bliss. But unacceptable in my vocabulary. Not that I'm so friggin smart!

The lead pellets you used must have a high content of antimony. A 7/8 oz of No. 6 shot is listed in standard data as 197 pellets. Your count of 218 pellets to render a 7/8 oz load, would indicate extra antimony in the lead, causing each pellet to be a little lighter than standard, requiring you to use more pellets, in order to have a 7/8 oz load. Possibly you used magnum, or hard shot, with about 5-6% antimony. Chilled, or standard pellets have about 2% antimony, and therefore more lead, causing each pellet to be heavier.

I would advise anyone NOT to use Les Hovencamp, at Diamond Gunsmithing, for anything. I had a very bad experience with him a while back.

Interesting and good post.

KenCrow

nhcrowshooter · Guru

Thanks Ken. Yes I was using Lawrence brand Magnum Lead #6. I weighed a shot charge and it threw 380.5 grains or .8697 of an ounce. 7/8 of an ounce would be .875 or 382.81 grains. It threw pretty close to the correct weight.

If you have and want to shoot an Ithaca Model 51 auto there is no other game in town for parts. Les is a former Ithaca gunsmith and he is the only place to get the nylon recoil buffers and proper size action spring. My experience with him was simple, I purchased the parts I needed and he sent them to me.

I think every gunsmith who has ever lived has some dissatisfied customers, at least all the ones I have dealt with do.

Ken do I remember you mentioning you have used an Ithaca 51?

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Friday 27th of May 2016 11:07:27 PM

KenCrow · Senior Member

NH,

I have never used a Ithaca 51. I have used the SKB made Ithaca Model XL300. The only shotguns (5 of them) that I now have are all Skb gas operated guns. I have had many shotguns over the last 45 years, and like the SKB better than anything else. I went to the NRA Convention in Louisville last week, and did not see any shotguns that appealed to me more so than the SKB's that I now have. One of my SKB's is a M-1900 Ducks Unlimited and it is a beauty! Brand new, with original box, papers, chokes etc.

Nail-em!

KenCrow

wbtguns · Newbie

Thanks for the post, People concerned about guns can take help from the firearms safety training to make things really safer and secure for yourself and your known ones. Those people concerned about security must also help the government to enforce the law and order as well as judiciary system out there.
Regards: california legal guns

-- Edited by wbtguns on Wednesday 15th of March 2023 07:03:18 AM

Island Shooter · Guru

M12Shooter wrote:
Interesting...why was the 7/8th ounce load chosen for the pattern testing? This would be your choice of hunting load?

Ted

Many shooters don't realize that the lighter 7/8 & 1 oz. loads offer a "purer" pattern than 1 1/8 & 1 1/4 oz. loads. This is in part due to the column height (and more importantly weight) when the load is fired. The heaver the column is when the gun goes off, the more that weight compresses the bottom layers of the lead pellets...creating misshapen or pancake-shaped pellets. These lower layers of odd-shaped pellets leave the barrel in random directions, compared to the round core pellets that are not deformed. Those "flyers" contribute little to the pattern circle.

The same dynamics apply to tight chokes at the end of the barrel that suddenly squeezes down and deform the outside perimeter pellets of the column rushing through the choke. This makes for even more "flyers" going out to the target. The flyers keep going out and away from the pattern while the core pellets stabilize and remain relatively pure as they travel to the target.

As strange as it initially seems, the best patterns for the really long shots are made with light loads and open chokes. I've seen hundreds of 90-100 yard targets crushed with light loads and IC chokes. Trust me...it works!

Demi

Skip · Guru

Hummm... light loads and and open chokes = long range broken clay or live birds! Sounds sort of not true doesn't it but Demi is mostly right and I am a true believer. I was standing beside an older gentleman using a factory 28 ga. with whatever shot charge is typical probably 5/8ths of ( I cannot remember ) 7.5 or 8's and we were shooting a right to left crossing clay bird AT 100 yards. He broke the bird nicely his first shot! Wow... double Wow. You can call it luck but he started shooting at the same crosser at 50 yards and was allowed to move back 10 yards only IF he broke the bird at 50, then 60 and so on back to 100. I am a true believer!

Skip

Granite Jaw · Senior Member

Thanks for the interesting information and observations shared in the above posts.

I enjoy patterning, in search of the perfect load/barrel/choke combination. I'm certain that'll never be found, so I look for one that's better than acceptable. To me, that's even coverage, (no holes), in that 30" circle and consistency. If I can lay my hand in a gap a couple of places, it's unacceptable. Obviously, the percentage of hits in the circle is less important than even coverage. Also obvious, a higher percentage increases the odds of even coverage. By inconsistent I mean a large disparity of hits. 50% and 70% with the same load through the same barrel isn't acceptable. In my eyes, both of NH's patterns above are better than acceptable.

Pattern testing is time consuming, and the variables involved are many, but one would hope a guy can get an idea of how loads preform by doing it.

That being said. Several years ago, I bought a flat of 1 1/8 oz. 3 dram #6's. Cheap. $55. Worst patterning shells I've ever tested. To get them out of my sight I figured I'd burn them up early the year. They killed crows at the same rate as any other shell. Or at least I couldn't tell any difference.

Randy

MSRob · Veteran Member

Hey Randy,

Is a 1 1/8 oz. #6 your favored crow load?

All this reminds me of a story Bert Popowski relays in his little 1943 book "Crow Calling";

"Guess that gun of your patterns 6's better than the larger shot," I commented as we picked up featherlight shell bags. "Hell with that," he disclaimed, half-drowning a late season grass-hopper with a choke-bored stream of bug juice. "If they are in range and you lead 'em right-- bingo, down they come." And, with very few exceptions, that is true, if your gun patterns at all well.

This story probably took place around 1930. I speculate its still as true today as it was then...

Granite Jaw · Senior Member

MSRob wrote:
Hey Randy,

Is a 1 1/8 oz. #6 your favored crow load?

All this reminds me of a story Bert Popowski relays in his little 1943 book "Crow Calling";

"Guess that gun of your patterns 6's better than the larger shot," I commented as we picked up featherlight shell bags. "Hell with that," he disclaimed, half-drowning a late season grass-hopper with a choke-bored stream of bug juice. "If they are in range and you lead 'em right-- bingo, down they come." And, with very few exceptions, that is true, if your gun patterns at all well.

This story probably took place around 1930. I speculate its still as true today as it was then...

Hey Rob,

I'd say 1 1/8oz. of #6's is a favored load, but I can't say it's my favorite. I don't think I really have a favorite. Or maybe I do. Cheap + dead crows = favorite.

I lean towards #6's because I think I have less hoppers than with #7 1/2's and #8's outside of forty yards. I've had good luck with an ounce of #6's. I've had good luck with #7 1/2's and #8's. A few years ago my partner and I split five flats of AA Sporting Clay loads. 1 1/8oz. @ 1300fps. They were on sale and had a $2 a box rebate. I had to cut the UPC out of fifty boxes, but we got them for less than $60 a flat. Man, did they kill crows. As any good target load would. Just not cost effective these days.

My partner shot very few store-bought shells the last couple of seasons. Mostly 1 1/8oz. of #7 reloads. As I mentioned in another post, we're trying to perfect a #7 load. Hopefully a one oz. 3 1/4-dram load, which should equate to 1250 plus fps.

We're probably over-thinking this. Crow hunting is easy. They come when you call them. They decoy to a garbage bag wrapped coat hanger. They can be killed by the cheapest shells you can buy. All we have to do is find them and hide.

As to your speculation on Mr. Popowski's story, I believe you are correct. I know operator error is the cause of my misses.

Hope you have a nice summer. Randy