I just got a lead on a farmer that is having a crow problem on his 1,500 acre farm (corn), and he has passed on his name and phone number for me to call him. I haven't called him yet as I want to make sure I'm able to do this legally. From what's listed below, a Federal Permit is not needed to take crows under certain conditions.
The following is all that Michigan Law says about taking crows outside of the open season:
1. Crows may be taken outside the open season during hunting hours in compliance with federal regulations, if these birds are causing a nuisance or creating a health hazard.
Looking up the Federal Regulation, I found what is listed below. I made some text BOLD that would apply to me and the farmer. So it seems to me that the farmer would have had to attempted to control the crows using non-lethal means before shooting them. Also, one of the Depredation Permit (separate regulation) provisions is the following:
(3) Permittees may not use blinds, pits, or other means of concealment, decoys, duck calls, or other devices to lure or entice birds within gun range.
Considering the above, crows are taken under a Depredation Order where a permit is not required, therefore it would only make sense that blinds, decoys and calls may be used.
Is that how you guys interpret this? Some might say to just call a Conservation Officer and ask, which I may do if it comes to that.
§21.43 Depredation order for blackbirds, cowbirds, crows, grackles, and magpies.
(a) Species covered.
Blackbirds
Cowbirds
Crows
Grackles
Magpies
Brewer's (Euphagus cyanocephalus)
Bronzed (Molothrus aeneus)
American (Corvus brachyrhynchos)
Boat-tailed (Quiscalus major)
Black-billed (Pica hudsonia)
Red-winged (Agelaius phoeniceus)
Brown-headed (Molothrus ater)
Fish (Corvus ossifragus)
Common (Quiscalus quiscula)
Yellow-headed (Xanthocephalus xanthocephalus)
Shiny (Molothrus bonariensis)
Northwestern (Corvus caurinus)
Great-tailed (Quiscalus mexicanus)
Greater Antillean (Quiscalus niger)
(b) Conditions under which control is allowed by private citizens. You do not need a Federal permit to control the species listed in paragraph (a) of this section in the following circumstances:
(1) Where they are causing serious injuries to agricultural or horticultural crops or to livestock feed;
(2) When they cause a health hazard or structural property damage;
(3) To protect a species recognized by the Federal Government as an endangered, threatened, or candidate species in any county in which it occurs, as shown in the Service's Environmental Conservation Online System (http://ecos.fws.gov);
(4) To protect a species recognized by the Federal Government as an endangered or threatened species in designated critical habitat for the species; or
(5) To protect a species recognized by a State or Tribe as endangered, threatened, candidate, or of special concern if the control takes place within that State or on the lands of that tribe, respectively.
(6) Each calendar year, you must attempt to control depredation by species listed under this depredation order using nonlethal methods before you may use lethal control. Nonlethal control methods can include such measures as netting and flagging, the use of trained raptors, propane cannons, and recordings.
(c) Conditions under which control is allowed by Federal, State, and Tribal employees. You do not need a Federal permit to control the species listed in paragraph (a) of this section in the following circumstances:
(1) Where they are causing serious injuries to agricultural or horticultural crops or to livestock feed;
(2) When they cause a health hazard or structural property damage; or
(3) To protect a species recognized by the Federal Government, a State, or a Tribe as an endangered, threatened, or candidate, species, or a species of special concern, including critical habitat for any listed species.
(4) Each calendar year, you must attempt to control depredation by species listed under this depredation order using nonlethal methods before you may use lethal control. Nonlethal control methods can include such measures as netting and flagging, the use of trained raptors, propane cannons, and recordings. However, this requirement does not apply to Federal, State, or Tribal employees conducting brown-headed cowbird trapping to protect a species recognized by the Federal Government, a State, or a Tribe as endangered, threatened, candidate, or of special concern.
(d) Ammunition. In most cases, if you use a firearm to kill migratory birds under the provisions of this section, you must use nontoxic shot or nontoxic bullets to do so. See §20.21(j) of this chapter for a listing of approved nontoxic shot types. However, this prohibition does not apply if you use an air rifle or an air pistol for control of depredating birds.
(e) Access to control efforts. If you exercise any of the privileges granted by this section, you must allow any Federal, State, tribal, or territorial wildlife law enforcement officer unrestricted access at all reasonable times (including during actual operations) over the premises on which you are conducting the control. You must furnish the officer whatever information he or she may require about your control operations.
(f) Trapping conditions. You must comply with the following conditions if you attempt to trap any species under this order.
(1) You may possess, transport, and use a lure bird or birds of the species listed in paragraph (a) that you wish to trap.
(2) You must check each trap at least once every day it is deployed.
(3) At temperatures above 80 °Fahrenheit, the traps must provide shade for captured birds.
(4) Each trap must contain adequate food and water.
(5) You must promptly release all healthy nontarget birds that you capture.
(6) If a federally permitted wildlife rehabilitator is within 1 hour or less of your capture efforts, you must send injured or debilitated nontarget federally protected migratory birds to the rehabilitator. If no rehabilitator is closer than 1 hour away, you may euthanize an injured or debilitated bird of a nontarget species unless the species is federally listed as an endangered, threatened, or candidate species, in which case you must deliver it to a rehabilitator and report the take to the nearest U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Field Office or Special Agent.
(7) You must report captures of nontarget federally protected migratory birds in your annual report (see paragraph (i) of this section).
(g) Euthanasia. Captured birds and wounded or injured birds of the species listed in paragraph (a) may only be killed by carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide inhalation, or by cervical dislocation performed by well-trained personnel who are regularly monitored to ensure proficiency.
(h) Disposition of birds and parts. You may not sell, or offer to sell, any bird, or any part thereof, killed under this section, but you may possess, transport, and otherwise dispose of the bird or its parts, including transferring them to authorized research or educational institutions. If not transferred, the bird and its parts must either be burned, or buried at least 1 mile from the nesting area of any migratory bird species recognized by the Federal Government, the State, or a Tribe as an endangered or threatened species.
(i) Annual report. Any person, business, organization, or government official acting under this depredation order must provide an annual report using FWS Form 3-202-21-2143 to the appropriate Regional Migratory Bird Permit Office. The addresses for the Regional Migratory Bird Permit Offices are provided at 50 CFR 2.2, and are on the form. The report is due by January 31st of the following year and must include the information requested on the form.
(j) Compliance with other laws. You may trap and kill birds under this order only in a way that complies with all State, tribal, or territorial laws or regulations. You must have any State, tribal, or territorial permit required to conduct the activity.
(k) Information collection. The Office of Management and Budget has approved the information collection requirements associated with this depredation order and assigned OMB Control No. 1018-0146. We may not conduct or sponsor and you are not required to respond to a collection of information unless it displays a currently valid OMB control number. You may send comments on the information collection requirements to the Service's Information Collection Clearance Officer at the address provided at 50 CFR 2.1(b).
[79 FR 65601, Nov. 5, 2014]
-- Edited by Bob O on Thursday 28th of September 2017 06:52:08 PM
Bob, what a great chance to get with a LO. I have wondered the same thing about depredation. All I can figure is you must use non-toxic shot and fill out the FWS report at the end of the year. I would get with your game warden and go over things with him. Somebody on the forum has probably gone this route and can direct you through the steps. Good Luck! Hope we get some more slo-crow-mo videos!!!
__________________
Old Ironworkers never die, they just rust away - Bob Harrington
If the law ad hears to no blind and no calling them plus no decoys what is the point of trying to hunt with a depredation permit, your just spinning your wheels.
It doesn't come out and say you may not use them for crows, but it does say for ducks, geese and other birds you may not. That was if you required a permit. Crows do not need a permit so my take on it is that provision doesn't apply.
-- Edited by Bob O on Thursday 28th of September 2017 10:16:54 PM
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 01:13:01 AM
Bob O, you need something in writing that is easy to interpret so that any game warden you encounter in the field interprets this the same way you do or else your going to have a problem. Some game wardens are not all that bright so I'm just saying!
Law enforcement won't give anything in writing. They will just have you refer to the law. I'll check with a local conservation officer.
I just got off the phone with the farmer....he said the crows tear into his silage(?) and eat the corn they chop before they can get it bagged. He said he expects a bunch of crows to come in next week (after the first frost). He actually runs a dairy farm and uses the corn to feed his cows. He said the pasture was full of crows in August eating from the cow pies...LOL!!!
He said I'm welcome anytime!!!
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 02:13:47 AM
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 02:14:48 AM
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 02:15:21 AM
If the law ad hears to no blind and no calling them plus no decoys what is the point of trying to hunt with a depredation permit, your just spinning your wheels.
One game warden I ran into afield (very rare occurrence-they are interested in pheasant stamps could not believe we hunted crows or any one did! That surprised me given they are legal within season..
The very need to use accessories is indeed useless without so I never tried to help the farmer who planted as it was hopeless....rifles definatey out of the question...
__________________
Top Cat Statutes never replaced or rewrote the constitution!
I just left a message (Contact Us form) for the Law Enforcement division of the US Fish and Wildlife Service, asking specific questions that I've asked here.
I'll let you know what I get back from them. Neither the farmer nor I want to get into any trouble.
The farmer has invited me to come to his farm so he can show me around. I am thinking about making a trip there this Sunday!
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 08:12:53 PM
I just left a message (Contact Us form) for the Law Enforcement division of the US Fish and Wildlife Service, asking specific questions that I've asked here.
I'll let you know what I get back from them. Neither the farmer nor I want to get into any trouble.
The farmer has invited me to come to his farm so he can show me around. I am thinking about making a trip there this Sunday!
-- Edited by Bob O on Friday 29th of September 2017 08:12:53 PM
Yeah. After tomorrow, you'll have a lot of time until 1 FEB, that is.
Unless, of course, you also chase other feathers or furred critters up there.
__________________
"Arms are the only true badges of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of a free man from a slave." -- Andrew Fletcher 1698
Yeah we have the same issue here. We can shoot depredation birds all year but can't use calls decoys or blinds. Thats makes it impossible to actually shoot one
Bob O, how's the prices on the coyotes up there? Went when I was at Valhalla just to locate them, and it seems they've moved to take advantage of the hog fest going on further back behind the house.
__________________
Old Ironworkers never die, they just rust away - Bob Harrington
I'd contact one of the COs who patrol your area. They are the ones who would approach you in the field anyway. I wouldn't waste my time contacting the Feds.
Overall, I think you can't legally use blinds/calls/decoys outside the season framework no matter if you need a permit or not. If you could use blinds/calls/decoys at any time then what is the point of having a season at all?
Some COs will be cool and not care about shooting crows, just depends. Some will think you are a monster for suggesting the taking of game outside of season. That's why I'd want to talk to a local guy. If the farmers silage pile is in a remote spot, then, well, you can always let your conscience be your guide. ;)
I'd contactone of the COs who patrol(s) your area. They are the ones who would approach you in the field anyway. I wouldn't waste my time contacting the Feds.
Overall, I think you can't legally use blinds/calls/decoys outside the season framework no matter if you need a permit or not. If you could use blinds/calls/decoys at any time then what is the point of having a season at all?
Some COs will be cool and not care about shooting crows, just depends. Some will think you are a monster for suggesting the taking of game outside of season. That's why I'd want to talk to a local guy. If the farmers silage pile is in a remote spot, then, well, you can always let your conscience be your guide. ;)
Good hunting,
BH
BH - It is indeed your wisdom that causes you to be known as "da man" around here, amongst your (one) followers.
BTW, I have a couple of postings coming up of the three shoots I was able to get out on. Nothing grand, just 3-6 birds each. Stand by.
-- Edited by Old Artilleryman on Sunday 1st of October 2017 10:04:18 PM
__________________
"Arms are the only true badges of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of a free man from a slave." -- Andrew Fletcher 1698
If the law ad hears to no blind and no calling them plus no decoys what is the point of trying to hunt with a depredation permit, your just spinning your wheels.
F&G as a rule don't know how to "hunt" crows including the "Bird Biologist" at F&G...or DEpt of Natural Resources whatever thety calkl your game warden DEpartment in your state. I would expect a department in the plains would have some idea how to do it though-he'd have to with the various bird depredations which naturally takes in the crow!
__________________
Top Cat Statutes never replaced or rewrote the constitution!
Funny you mention that Fish & Game knows very little about crows or there habits. About ten years ago Dick and I pulled in to a wildlife refuge (out of state) to talk to the Game Warden about where there was a crow roost in his county. He had no clue or if he did he wasn't saying. Dick and I found the roost 10 miles east of this Wardens office later that afternoon just by driving and watching. Fish & Game is geared to upland birds and waterfowl and that's it in the bird department.
Bob O, you need something in writing that is easy to interpret so that any game warden you encounter in the field interprets this the same way you do or else your going to have a problem. Some game wardens are not all that bright so I'm just saying!
I think our people in Concord got their positions for political reasons as the so called Bird BIologist knew nothing about crow depredations...the one I met anyways years ago..I mean who doesn;t know the damage to our birds of every stripe by the crow? Ask F&G!!!
__________________
Top Cat Statutes never replaced or rewrote the constitution!
Still working on this. Been busy with my jobs but I have a couple days off starting tomorrow so I'll stop at the state police and ask them face to face to pass my number on to the Conservation Officer. Leaving messages so far hasn't done any good.
Okay guys, I got some answers. US Fish and Wildlife never recontacted me either by phone or by email, but I just got off the phone with the State DNR Regional Commander - we talked for about an hour. This guy was a Conservation Officer on patrol in my area for about 20 years while I worked on patrol with the State Police (we both carried revolvers way back then). So we did our share of BS'ing and catching up since we haven't seen one another in a couple of years.
Regarding the Depredation Order, he told me that decoys, blinds and calls may be used. He said the absence of the wording in the Order doesn't mean you can't use them like it says in the Permit section. He went on to point out the absence of the wording in the Order about only using a shotgun no larger than 10 gauge, where that doesn't mean you can't use a shotgun to shoot them. So I'm good to go just as if it was open season!!
He also said that if there were any reports of crows being shot on this farm, which is highly unlikely being that the area surrounding the farm is a small tight-knit community of farmers, etc., that the DNR might come out and check on it, but US Fish and Wildlife officers wouldn't even bother. He said that no one is going to be able to get one of them anyway, especially to check on a farmer shooting crows in the off-season.
Interesting information he passed along to me about crow hunting seasons. Bob or some of you guys might be able to confirm this as fact or fiction, but he said this was what he remembered from many years back. He said that there used to be no closed season on crows anywhere in the US. He said that the season came about because of Mexico having no closed season on ducks and geese. He said that the people of Mexico value the crow and don't shoot them down there like we do in the US. So an agreement was reached that the US would establish a "season" on crows and Mexico would establish a "season" on ducks and geese. Interesting if true.
-- Edited by Bob O on Wednesday 4th of October 2017 08:18:10 PM
I have shot crows south of the border right in Mexico and right in front of the local game warden down there. I was hunting white wing doves mainly but the warden could care less as long as he got his cut of the profits from the outfitter! Your dollars are your best friend especially in Mexico.
You can still shoot waterfowl with no bag limits in Mexico.
The crow season is all political, in my opinion the only time I would close it would be during nesting season and that is it. Here is a good photo of Dick & I shooting crows that fly across the Rio Grande River from Juarez Mexico to El Paso Texas on the other side of the river! That is the border fence I am at in the photo.
